Talk:Cathar
From Academic Kids
Cathars are albigensians. Albigensians is a geographical name. Unless anyone objects, I'll combine both under Cathars, and fix links to Albigensians = Cathars. I'll leave this up for a day or so befor changing.JHK
- I think that would work well. Note that in searches, there have been references to Cathar, Cathars, Catharist, Cathari... oy! -- April
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Should we advertise books quite so blatantly?
I am all for including the ISBN numbers with books we list as further reading, or references... But including an image of the cover right after the listing? I dunno. -- Jussi-Ville Heiskanen 00:46, Dec 12, 2003 (UTC)
The answer to the question is NO and I promptly removed that image. Nixdorf 17:40, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)
removed from the article:
- "["Cathar" derives from "cat"] which they were supposed to sexually abuse during their ceremonies"
That doesn't sound real. If you had a sect, would you name it after the animal you'd abuse ? :)
Anyway, if anybody get a good reference on "cat abuse" by the cathars, I'll put it back. Bogdan 11:11, 20 Dec 2003 (UTC)
- Cathar is widely known to have been derived from the greek Katharos for Pureness - and the Cathar were called that either reverentially or mockingly because of their supposed or actual purity. They usually called themselves simply "Christians" and many of their leaders were known as the Perfecti - the Perfect. They were accused of many forms of divergence and perversity by those who oppressed them, but in my many years of studying them and the oppressions against them, this (to my memory) is the first I have heard of any claims that they were called that because of "Cat abuse" —Kalki 20:13, 2003 Dec 20 (UTC)
- The OED does not know that derivation at least. Probably the idea is just a joke by someone. -- Jussi-Ville Heiskanen 20:51, Dec 20, 2003 (UTC)
- I take that back. The story that Cathars are named after the cat ("cattus") is real. That is it is a genuine slander propagated against them at least in Germany. The slander mentioned by Malcolm Lambert in his book The Cathars appears to be that some opponents claimed that cathars "kissed a cat", but that it was only one form of a whole range of similar accusations, so in that context I would not say that even the more strongly put accusation is not totally implausible.
- The key here is though, that it is a calculated slander against them, and not an even semi-serious etymology. -- Jussi-Ville Heiskanen 07:21, Dec 21, 2003 (UTC)
There is a Latin phrase in the beginning of this article ("Hos nostra germania catharos appellat") and I think it would be helpful if someone translated it. -Branddobbe 02:25, Apr 26, 2004 (UTC)
Rough translation: "Those that are in Germany (or by Germans) called the cats." -- Euthydemos 02:14, July 15, 2004 (UTC)
Many modern-day Christians, as well as folks of other Faiths, have a fascination with Cathars, although, having read Wikipedia's story on the subject, I have difficulty understanding why, most particularly the exploration of their beliefs and practices... might there still be Cathars "around"? If so, I'd like to know what attracted them to the Faith, or what keeps them observing it....--XXtraPrince 18:31, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Does this page need editing for neutrality?
I realize that the bulk of the article comes from the 1911 Britannica, which I wouldn't expect to be neutral on the subject of Christian heresies. But it's 2004 now, and the continual reference to "heresy", "heretics", and so on in the text grates on me. Is it worthwhile to attempt a rewrite in order to accomplish a little more neutrality on the subject? -- joXn 23:54, 2004 Aug 26 (UTC)
Yes I think this a good idea - after all, the sects that the Roman Church regarded as heretics all regarded the Roman Church as an heretical sect - and I can't see any reason to favour one Christian sect over any other.
By the way, on the question of the etymology of the word Cathar - it has to be significant that the word was invented by the Roman Church - this makes the Greek etymology (pure) unlikely since the writers in the RC Church were consistently hostile. It is known on the other hand that Cathars in northern Europe were referred to as cat worshippers. It is also significant that kissing cats' backsides was one of the standard callumnies, like buggery, cited against enemies of the church. It was used against witches and the Templars. For more see the cathar section of my website www://languedoc-france.info.
IMO even if the 1911 Britannica was far from neutral on the subject of Christian heresies. The Cathars were so far from any contemporary Christian church today that it hasn't any importance today. Of course the article should be updated according to what conteporary historians think. But being French (and thus mainly under Catholic influence about my understanting of Chistianism) I believeve that the 1911 Britannica was much more balanced about the Cathars than any French source until -at least 1945- 1945. Ericd 22:49, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Stephen Shea's book (which I've added to the bibliography) spends a whole page discussing whether the term 'heresy' can be applied to Catharism, and concludes 'If the Cathars can't be called heretics, we should just delete the word [heretic] from our dictionaries. In the text I use the term in the sense of dissent, not depravity'. I agree with that. --Townmouse 22:03, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I still do not think it is good enough for a modern Encyclopedia. Either properly define the term at the beginning, or (better) fix the text. Wizzy 09:42, Oct 27, 2004 (UTC)
I deleted the statement saying how terrible it was, due to the fact it didn't say WHO considered it terrible. Did commoners of the RC believe it was terrible? Northern French nobles? Yes, you'd probably be hard-pressed to find someone who didn't think it was terrible today, but we're also taught not to judge the past based on today's morals. I've just gotten into the habit of explaining why I delete something if I'm not re-wording it.--John Lynch 16:10, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Bogomils = Paulicians?
"Their doctrines have numerous resemblances to those of the Bogomils, and still more to those of the Paulicians, with whom they are also sometimes connected." The entry for Paulicians is a link to Bogomils. According to that entry, the terms are synonymous. --Townmouse 22:03, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
And another query: We have In 1147, Pope Eugene III sent a legate to the affected district in order to arrest the progress of the heresy. The few isolated successes of The Abbot of Clairvaux could not obscure the poor results of this mission, and well shows the power of the sect in the south of France at that period. I've changed that to name St. Bernard of Clairvaux as the abbot at the time, but he went in 1145, and AFAIK not as a Papal legate. Is the date wrong, or do the 2 sentences refer to 2 different preachers? --Townmouse 22:03, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Ritual suicide?
The Voynich manuscript page refers to rumours or ritual assisted suicide among the Cathars, but I can't find any mention of it in the write up. Is there any historical basis to these rumors? Are they part of the Catholic conception of the sect?
More curious than anything else, but I imagine that accusations of such should probably fit into the suppression subsection
-J
This is just propaganda IMO. Ericd 11:44, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Cathars and Trouboldors and Women
Greetings. I have been researching women rulership in the midevial periode and came across the Cathars. In all my lititure reguarding women and Cathars they state women were held in far better standing, often leaders of their own local communities. And that Catharism transended the feudal system to include the peasents and nobility. The Troubeldors are cited as heavily influenced by Cathars, as was the ducal house of Poutier. According to my sources, women in the Aqutaine, largely because of the Cathar influence, were able to inherite and rule their own lands in precident to their children or other male relitives as would have been the case in Northern France under Salic. This tradition led to Eleanor of Aqutaine inheriting by right.
Can anyone comment on this? I have not seen the same kind of information in this particular artical and would welcome more discussion on women Cathars and the Aqutaine/Troubordor connection.Drachenfyre
Neoplatonism
I changed a bit of the wording from "forms of Gnosticism, such as Neoplatonism", given that Neoplatonism does not reside inside Gnosticism, though they are certainly interwoven.
