Talk:Buddhism
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Welcome to Talk:Buddhism.
Loving-kindness to you and yours!
Earlier parts of this discussion have been moved to Talk:Buddhism/Archive, Talk:Buddhism/Archive2, Talk:Buddhism/Archive3, Talk:Buddhism/Archive4, and Talk:Buddhism/Archive5.
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Open Tasks
Please see also Wikipedia:WikiProject Buddhism
Abolitionism
Moved to Talk:Buddhism/Abolitionism
Recent Theravada categorization
Several articles were recently categorized by anon 62.252.128.15 as belonging to category "Theravada Buddhism"; this includes some articles, such as "Dharma", that some might argue (i.e., I might argue) should be implied to inhere to all forms of Buddhism, and that a Theravada category tag should be applied only to things pertaining to Theravada Buddhism as opposed to other forms of Buddhism. Otherwise we're going to get some serious redundancy going on. -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 23:40, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Totally. The Buddhism category should do it for Buddhist terms and terminology. (20040302 17:23, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC))
Request for help on interfaith dialogue
I need help from Buddhists in an attempt to speak of a common ground among believers. Are there any Buddhists here who could either help me or direct me to a group where I might find knowledgeable and mature Buddhists willing to help me for a while explore the feasibility of a universalist Wiki type project on core universal truths such as possibly eternity, sacrificial love, and soul? Tom - Talk 06:57, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Interesting. I don't really know any Buddhist groups, but I'm curious about your project...could you say more about it? Particularly, what do you mean by "common ground" or "universal truths"; is your project syncretic or echumenical, or what? -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 18:01, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Orkut has a number of useful communities for such an effort, although one would probably need to "fish" for a while. Its main "Buddhism" community is quite good indeed. Luis Dantas
References
I notice that on Wikipedia talk:Featured article removal candidates people seem to be talking about references as a standard requirement of featured articles. Should we try to put together a list of works we've consulted in editing the Buddhism page? Most of my edits to this particular page have actually been based on general knowledge rather than specific texts, but if anybody can recall texts they've used... -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 19:31, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
See also Wikipedia:What is a featured article. -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽
I don't know how widely available the NetLibrary (http://netlibrary.com) service is, or to what percentage of their books the local libraries of other Wikipedians might subscribe, but I can use it to get to a couple of useful resources like Gethin's Foundations of Buddhism and something non-useless called Thirty-five Oriental Philosophers from whatever computer I happen to be using at a given moment and it allows full-text searching, so it might be good for fact-checking. -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽
Removed section on upanishads
The Anatta doctrine is in stark semblence with the Brhadaranyaka Upanishad where Yajnavalkya explains to Maitreyi about consciousness. While Sankara has dismissed it as a non-Buddhist proclamation, the fact that consciousness is not self is affirmed not only by Buddhism, but also by many other Upanishads in various places and happens to be highly coincidental with the anatta doctrine of Buddhism. This definition of anatta is very clear from the Anatta-lakkhana sutta of the Samyutta Nikaya Sutta pitika in the Pali Canon.
- This is not at all NPOV, and clearly requires substantiation in scholarly sources, which I believe might be difficult to find, though, I should admit, I have also had my suspicions about certain Yajnavalkya passages. But Wikipedia is not a place for original research (or argumentation) -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 18:35, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Category:Theravada
An anon (using 62.252.128.17 at the nonce, though I don't know if there are also others) keeps adding (and re-adding!!!) the category willy-nilly, to mostly to pan-Buddhist concepts, occasionally to pan-Nikaya Buddhist concepts (not the same thing as Theravada concepts), occasionally to things that are actually Theravada specific. How can I make this person stop? -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 01:18, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- By the way, Kukku, I wanted to say that I agree wholeheartedly with your recent edits in terms of the Theravada category and anatta. I might even prefer a more radical edit of the anatta contributions, but, then, I guess I am known for my newbie biting tendencies. Agree in principle with your call for references, too, although I can't come up with any off the top of my head. "General knowledge" is, of course, the bane of a well-referenced paper, and yet it tends to come in handy writing an encyclopedia. - Nat Krause 04:34, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Non-violence and war
Could you tell something about the relationship of Buddhism with non-violence and war? Both what is preached and what Buddhists actually do. Thank you.
- Good question. I keep meaning to write an article on Brian Victoria's Zen at War. A topic difficult to approach because of its broadness, though. - Nat Krause 04:31, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Open tasks
By the way, looks like we've had a flurry of activity lately from new contributors on Buddhism-related topics. This is great. I've updated [[Template:BuddhismOpenTasks]] to keep track of new additions. Interested parties may wish to refer to it for editorial purposes. Thanks to Quadell and others for their work. - Nat Krause 08:13, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Question
Does Wikipedia have a section on the two-truths doctrine in Buddhism? Also, what the appropriate name for such an article be, if, say, it doesn't have one and someone needs to start one? -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 00:22, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- According to the article on Nagarjuna, it would seem to be upaya, but I know nothing about this topic myself. Shantavira 19:21, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- I've noticed that, and I'm almost certain that's my fault, but in any case it's definitely wrong. It's not unrelated by any means, but it's not the same; odds are I was just looking for it to point somewhere and that seemed like the least inappropriate. I know that for some schools it's "samvrti" v. "paramartha" satya, and there's something Pali that I don't recall off the top of my head (nitartha and neyartha, perhaps?), but neither end of either of these two poles probably warrants a separate article, whereas trying to cram them both into the title would be annoying, not to mention the fact that neither dyad is universally apt. I've seen the term "satyadvaya" used in secondary literature, but I don't know if that's a term of actual importance or just something that sounds cool to the people who write about Buddhism in academic journals...There's also dialetheism to consider, and I know that one of the people associated with that has collaborated with Jay Garfield in applying it to Buddhism, but I don't think this really helps solve the problem... -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 21:40, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- "samvrti" and "paramartha" are probably the best starting points, Kukk. I would suggest that the relationship between samvrti and upaya are hermeneutic - within the domain of the attitudinal shift of the practitioner- but one cannot say that upaya and samvrti are cognate. There are some very interesting delineations/classifications of samvrti, and I for one would welcome an article on it, not that I have much to contribute (20040302 21:05, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC))
I've started a bare-bones article at Two Truths Doctrine. -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 21:21, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Lead image
Okay, nobody freak out. I put up a new lead image for this article. I've been seeing a lot of nice new images appearing on commons (http://commons.wikimedia.org), so I thought I would try something different. I don't know if other people will like it, and I don't if I think it's a keeper myself, but we might as well see how it looks for a little while. - Nat Krause 13:38, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Well, I changed it back to the way it was before. None of the other images I tried really grabbed me, and I got kind of attached to the old Big Buddha. Might try again later. - Nat Krause 06:22, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Also
There was a line in this article about Tocharians (in the Gobi Desert) following Theravada Buddhism. Now, I'm not sure, but I don't think I've ever heard a credible source say that Theravada was ever followed anywhere but Sri Lanka, Southeast Asia, and sometimes India -- for the most part, it appears to have been an export from Sri Lanka, which would make it remarkable if it made it all the way to the Gobi. Other Nikaya schools had followings in other places, though. Pending further evidence, I changed the reference to Tocharians following Nikaya Buddhism. - Nat Krause 06:22, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Buddhism by country vs. Buddhist regions
Our good friend, Mr Tan recently made a new page called Buddhism by country which is basically a table showing percentage of Buddhists in each country, along with links to country-specific articles like Buddhism in Singapore (thanks also to OneGuy for his work on the former article). He also replaced the link to Buddhist regions in [[Tempate:BuddhismOpenTask]] with a link to Buddhism by country. I want to get other people's opinions on whether this is a good idea. I tend to think that it is not. The Buddhist regions page needs work, but it seems like fundamentally a more meaningful way to discuss different varieties of Buddhism: Buddhist regions can encompass country-specific articles as well as broader topics like East Asian Buddhism and (legally) intra-national topics like Tibetan Buddhism. I would suggest putting Buddhist regions back in the template, and then having a prominent link to Buddhism by country at the top of that article. - Nat Krause 16:16, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC) — P.S. I'm really going to write the Western Buddhism article soon. I mean it.
German Wikipedia
The German Wikipedia's article seems much more colorful than the English one. If anyone can translate the article and add the content here, it would be great... or add their pictures. See: de:Buddhismus -- AllyUnion (talk) 00:46, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- I would be of no help translating, but they do have some nice pictures. When I get a chance, I'll try moving some of them over to Commons and putting them into english articles. - Nat Krause 18:46, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Buddhism in America
Well, my planned expansion of the Western Buddhism page has turned into a brand-new article at Buddhism in America, mostly because I know next to nothing about Buddhism in Europe, Australia, and South America. I now envision that Western Buddhism will become sort of a clearinghouse page with short summaries and links to articles about specific countries or regions. On the Buddhism in America article, I still plan to add a few short paragraphs under Trends in American Buddhism, but the section on Tibetan Buddhism I'm going to leave somewhat underdeveloped. I figured there are some people around here who know the U.S. Tibetan Buddhism scene better than I do, so I just typed up a couple things that I thought of off the top of my head and will leave it to someone else to complete the section. Another helpful thing people can do to enhance the article would be to get together some more images for it (I still plan to add some more that are already uploaded). Most big cities in the U.S. and Canada have some kind of interesting-looking Buddhist temples in them someplace, so if anyone can get a chance to head over to one such temple, take a picture, and then upload it, we can probably put it into the article somewhere. - Nat Krause 21:39, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Origins of Meditation
The passage... "he found a large tree (now called the Bodhi tree) under which he would be shaded from the heat of the mid-summer sun, and set to meditating. This new way of practicing began to bear fruit."
...seems to suggest that Buddha invented meditation. I don't know enough to correct this, but it existed long before, though he no doubt came up with new methods.
- I think when it says "new way", it means new for Siddhartha, not brand new in the world. Please go ahead and edit for clarity, though. - Nat Krause 18:58, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Okay, it's fixed. I ended up saying that he developed a new form of meditation - i don't really know what the thinking is on that. There are many different meditation techniques taught under the rubric of Buddhism, perhaps he developed several. --John_Abbe 02:58, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Jainism passage
I removed this from the Origins section for discussion (despite the note asking one note to do this, which, to be honest, I'm frustrated we left in the article for so long):
- The Buddhists always maintained that by the time Buddha and Mahavira were alive, Jainism was already an ancient and deeply entrenched faith and culture in the region. Buddhist scriptures record philosophical dialogues between the wandering seeker Buddha and Jain teachers such as Udaka Ramaputta. Early Buddhists posited the existence of 24 previous Buddhas (Buddhas who walked the earth prior to Gautama Siddhartha) many of whose names are identical to those of the 24 Jain Tirthankaras and other traditional Jain figures. Buddhist scriptures attest that many of the first Buddhists were in fact Jains (Nirgranthas as they were then called, meaning "the unbonded ones"), whom Buddha encouraged to maintain their Jain identity and practices such as giving alms to Jain monks and nuns. The famous ancient parable of the blind men and the elephant illustrates the Jain science of Anekantavada, and is found in the Buddhist Pali text called Udana. Like most splinter groups generally, writers of the Pali texts clearly rejoiced in criticizing (and at times ridiculing) the Jains and celebrating the conversion of another Jain to Buddha's path. The texts show that Buddha vigorously appealed to the Nirgranthas that his path was nothing different from that with which they were already familiar, simply better.
- The Buddhist formulation of the "Middle Way" was a post-Buddha response by the Buddhist monastic community to criticism by the Jains (as seen in Jain texts such as the Sutrakritanga Sutra and Acharanga Sutra) that the Buddhist Bhikkhus (mendicants) were lax and not living the rigorous life of a true ascetic or Shramana (Samana in Prakrit). In defining the Middle Way, Buddhist scholars branded their faith with a unique identity that distanced itself from Jain tradition by providing an alternative to "extreme asceticism" (i.e., Jainism) on one hand and Buddha's own princely hedonism on the other. In describing Buddha's six-years of spiritual searching after leaving his family, Buddhist scriptures from the early post-Buddha period detail certain fasts, penances and austerities which Buddha undertook whose descriptions are elsewhere found only in the Jain tradition (for example, the penance by five fires and the consumption of food using only one's cupped hands). To this day, many Buddhist teachings, principles and terms remain identical to Jain ones. In short, a large body of evidence suggests that Buddhism is, in large measure, an offshoot of Jainism.
- (Note: If counterevidence exists to any of the above, it is requested that it be appended to the end.)
I find the above to be tendentious and argumentative, and, no, the solution is not to add on further argumentation. It is documented on the Jainism page (where the same text appears) by reference to two books, one by a Jain scholar and one by a Japanese one. I think that a theory like this should be better documented and presented in a more balanced fashion if it is going to be included. - Nat Krause 14:11, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Math Symbols?
The main article reads: It is derived from the verbal root "√budh", meaning "to awaken or be enlightened".
The square-root sign is not a transcoding error in the browser, but is explicitly stated with the √ entity.
What is a square-root sign doing in a word? Should that be some other symbol? What language is this verbal root from? IAC, it needs clarification.
- I believe it was added by a linguist, and has some kind of special jargony meaning among linguists. I would guess that √ means that what follows is a reconstructed (which is to say, speculative) linguistic root, rather than a complete word in any actual language. I agree that it looks weird now, but I'm not sure how to edit it. - Nat Krause 03:31, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- It is the standard way to indicate Sanskrit and Pali verbal roots in Western sources. Characterizing these roots as "reconstructed" or "speculative" seems to trivialize the matter -- very ancient lists for these roots exist in the various dhatu-pathas which form a corner-stone to traditional and modern accounts of morphological derivation. But I suggest either retaining the symbol and deleting the explanatory "verbal root" or vice versa, since one or the other is redundant.--Stephen Hodge 01:31, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Request for references
Hi, I am working to encourage implementation of the goals of the Wikipedia:Verifiability policy. Part of that is to make sure articles cite their sources. This is particularly important for featured articles, since they are a prominent part of Wikipedia. The Fact and Reference Check Project has more information. Thank you, and please leave me a message (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Taxman&action=edit§ion=new) when a few references have been added to the article. - Taxman 18:36, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)
True Self = Non-Self in All Mahayana Sutras?
- Hallo. I see that a sentence has been added to the end of an early paragraph on the Buddha-nature and True Self in the general introduction to the Buddhism article, saying that the True Self is described as no self in all Mahayana Sutras. This is not quite accurate, unfortunately, as that is never stated in the Nirvana Sutra, which is the central Mahayana sutra for the teaching on the True Self. In fact, the very opposite is taught there: the Buddha insists that the non-Self is Samsara, whereas the True Self is the all-pervading Buddha in Nirvana. Could you modify your statement, do you possibly think? I hope you won't feel offended by my asking for this. I'd also be interested to know where the Buddha says that "the True Self is non-Self", as I haven't come across that in a single Mahayana sutra (this could well be my own omission or oversight, though!). Thanks very much for your co-operation (if you don't mind). Best wishes to you - Tony TonyMPNS 21:42, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I have deleted the inaccurate addition mentioned above. I wonder if the person who inserted it has read even half a dozen, let alone "all Mahayana sutras". Though the "true" self is described as "no self" in the Mahayana-sutra-alamkara, I think the person who inserted will be unable to provide even two or three references to Mahayana sutras which state this. Without such references, I would regard this addition as a kind of sabotage from somebody who perhaps cannot countenance the idea that some authentic forms of Buddhism did teach a positive "true" self.--Stephen Hodge 01:31, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Related to this, I have removed somebody's erroneous statement that "The Srimala sutra says that this presenting of a seeming self is done in order not to scare away those who would be afraid of the central non-self doctrine of Buddhism". I really wish people who make such statements would at least read the texts in question before adding such spurious comments. In fact, the Srimala says, "The Tathagata-garbha is the domain of the Tathagata, it is not the domain of any Sravaka or Pratyekabuddha" etc. More sabotage ?--Stephen Hodge 02:18, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I am not sufficiently familliar with the Srimala to comment about that but in the Lankavatara Sutra (http://hjem.get2net.dk/civet-cat/mahayana-writings/lankavatara-sutra.htm) one can indeed find a statement the the effect that the function of the Buddhist atman is "not to scare away ignorant people". I stipulate that it is possible to interpret the last two sentences of Chapter 6 as equivocation; but there are at least two other possibilities: later emendation, and/or a positive expression of sunya and dependent arising. --Munge 05:50, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Hallo Munge. Thanks for your comments. You may be interested to know that the Nirvana Sutra (and that sutra is, after all, avowedly the final doctrinal pronouncement of the Buddha on such matters as the Tathagatagarbha and the Self) makes it very plain that it is those persons who have been long schooled and practised in non-Self and Emptiness who need to be told not to be "frightened" by the teaching of the truly existing Tathagatagarbha! Also, the passage in the Lankavatara Sutra which you refer to is speaking specifically about the notion of Self clung to by "the philosophers". Part of that notion (as mentioned in the preceding paragraph of the Lanka text) is that the Self is the eternal Creator. The Buddha then rejects that notion of Self. Equally, the problem with these "philosophers" (from the Buddha's vantage point) is that they talk about things of which they do not have direct experience: they mouth words which do not issue from perfect knowledge, but are instead the fruits of non-experiential speculation. It is such an empty concept of Self that the Buddha wants people to detach from. In the final part of the Lankavatara Sutra - the "Sagathakam" collection of verses, which is thought to be quite old - the Buddha indicates that he is not denying the Self with his Tathagatagarbha doctrine, stating: "The Self, whose characteristic is purity, is the state of Self-realisation. This is the Tathagatagarbha, which does not belong to the realm of the philosophers." As so often in Buddhism, "atman" is used in two contrasting ways in the Lankavatara Sutra: it can either (and usually does in Buddhism and almost exclusively in the Lanka) mean the worldly, impermanent ego made up of the five skandhas, or it can mean the supramundane True Self, which is not evenescent and which cannot be comprehended by the ordinary mind and its plodding logic. I think that until one recognises the dual usage of the term "Self" in Buddha-Dharma, one is liable to misapprehend the intended meaning of (especially the Tathagatagarbha) sutras. One further note: the Lankavatara Sutra is generally regarded as a doctrinally mixed text, not "pure" Tathagatagarbha. I know that you have a (totally legitimate and valuable) interest in later Tathagatagarbha doctrine; but if we stick with the "pure-blooded" Tathagatagarbha sutras themselves, it is clear that the Garbha teaching is not some kind of lower-grade presentation of Dharma for those of faint hearts. Just because a teaching has a positive effect on certain types of being does not mean that the teaching is articulating an untruth (viewed within the parameters of that spiritual Doctrine as a whole). It may well have the intended effect of encouraging those who might otherwise misunderstand the non-Self teaching in an absolutist and utterly negative way (as many people, in my view, still do!) - but that in no way means that the Garbha doctrine itself is to be understood as, spiritually, "poor man's Dharma" or "untrue" (not that you are arguing that yourself!). Best wishes, from Tony. TonyMPNS 13:41, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Buddhists famously disagree about which text represents the final doctrinal pronouncement, so an encyclopedia cannot claim that one or the other has precedence. Moreover, I think not all Mahayana sects accepted even the universality of Buddha Nature as expresed in the (later versions of the) MPNS. Those that do accept such universality, including Tendai and Zen I believe, do not seem to regard the MPNS as expressing the definitive explanation of what Buddha nature is. And one cannot unilaterally say that these developments were degenerate. To try to search for some common ground here, can we not say something like "Buddhists unanimously and unequivocally reject the conventional notion of self. Differences appear from sect to sect, across time and geography, regarding what the true self really is—or even whether it exists. What Buddhists do agree on regarding the self is that awakening is possible. That transformation—or, according to some, a profound realization that there is nothing to transform—is the fruit of practice, devotion, study, or perhaps simply hearing the word of the Buddhadharma." I don't know if that's it. But again, this is an encyclopedia; it cannot advocate in favor of a particular vision of what true Buddhism is. It cannot imply that 1700 years of Chinese Buddhist doctrinal developments are somehow inauthentic; it cannot hold itself superior to the Nikaya schools; and it cannot deconstruct rationally those irrational elements that are so prevalent in certain strains of Buddhism, notably but not limited to Huayen and Zen. Not without becoming a platform for particular points of view. --Munge 05:00, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Hallo again Munge. Your above comments contain a lot of good sense, and I agree with much of what you write. However, I am not arguing that the Nirvana Sutra should be seen as the "final explanation of Dharma" by the Buddha out of some personal, biased preference of mine (that would be stupid) - but from the fact that it states itself to be so and is accepted as such by all major Mahayana schools. After all, the sutra is said to be the last sutra delivered by the Buddha on the very eve of his death! Ipso facto, it constitutes the Buddha's final presentation of his Dharma while still on this earth, and thus great importance has always accrued to it within the Mahayana traditions. That is not to dismiss later interpretations and commentaries (on the Dhatu/Self, or whatever). But I think it is helpful to keep clear and distinct what the sutras themselves say, and what later commentarial and exegetical tradition has made of that (the two are not necessarily the same thing!). I am not trying to reject Chinese (or any other) interpretations of the Buddha-dhatu from discussion on Wiki (again, that would be ludicrous and utterly intolerant of me, if I were to do that) - but am simply keen that the unjust tendency found in many Western treatments of Buddhism over the past 100 years of either ignoring the Buddha-dhatu/Tathagatagarbha/True Self teachings or minimising and re-interpreting them in an egregiously inaccurate and procrustean manner should not be replicated on Wiki (I am not accusing you of doing that, needless to say!). I think it is best always to distinguish between what the sutras (foundational primary texts) say, and what later exegesis would have them say. Finally, there is no distinction(as you seem to imply by your phrase, "later versions") regarding the "universality" of the Buddha-dhatu as between the Fa-xian, Tibetan and Dharmaksema versions of the Nirvana Sutra: all three agree that the Dhatu is present in all beings, including in the iccantikas (in that sense it is "universal"). The difference comes when the Dharmaksema text asserts that even iccantikas will find Liberation. The other two texts do not state that at all. Best wishes to you. Yours - Tony. 212.139.235.85 07:48, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I believe I have read -- although not from anything like a primary source -- that the Tiantai school believed that the Lotus Sutra was the Buddha's ultimate teaching and that the Nirvana Sutra was on a slightly lower level; likewise, I thought that the Huayan school taught that the Avatamsaka was the highest truth, with, presumably, both the Lotus and the Nirvana Sutra on lower levels. Is this not the case? Certainly, Nichiren Buddhists, if no one else, believe that the Lotus is the ultimate truth, so it can't be literally true that all Mahayana schools take the Nirvana Sutra as ultimate. - Nat Krause 07:58, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Hi Nat. You are right. My point, though, is that the Nirvana Sutra is accepted as the last sutra delivered by the Buddha during his lifetime - and so has a special place precisely as the final presentation of Dharma given by Shakyamuni Buddha on the very brink of death. But I am not chiefly concerned in my comments with what "schools" say in any case (although, as it happens, all the main Mahayana schools do accept that the MPNS was the Buddha's last sutra on earth, just before his Mahaparinirvana). I am always interested in what the sutras themselves say. That is the difference! But this is not to preclude discussion of schools, etc. Naturally not! Best wishes - from Tony. TonyMPNS 08:05, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Third precept
Say, I was wondering if we can get a citation for this recently added bit: "It should be noted that, strictly speaking, the third precept covers more than the conventional idea of sexual misconduct and actually involves refraining from all wrong sensory pleasures." - Nat Krause 03:27, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Yes, the Pali and corresponding Sanskrit gives "kaama" in the plural -- if it was just "sexual misconduct" it would be in the singular. the "kaama" here is related to the five kaama-gunas. This alternative, and possibly original interpretation, is widely known. I can give you more details tomorrow as it's a bit late here. Note also that I have corrected a number of errors and added clarifications to other parts of the article. These changes are all based on well attested research. Do you want references for all of them ??--Stephen Hodge 03:43, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Further to my previous message, one might refer to Ven H. Saddhatissa's "Buddhist Ethics" (Wisdom 1987)p92 where he states, "We now return to the interpretation of the precept as with kaama in the locative plural form kaamesu. In such form the precept signifies abstinence from all indulgences in the five sensuous objects .... in representing kaamesu micchaacaara as relating only to sexual intercourse the grammatical form of kaama has been ignored; to achieve complete observance of the precept, one must therefore desist from the five forms of self-indulgence, both directly and indirectly".
- Ah, that sounds reasonable. It might be better to say that the original version apparently includes all sensual indulgences, since anyone who takes the precepts in translation will probably take a version that only includes sexual behavior (or am I wrong about that?)
- I have modified my addition to reflect this comment.--Stephen Hodge 18:03, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Generally, it is good to provide citations for as much material as possible. Theoretically, everything should be referenced, although this is very commonly ignored by editors. As a rule of thumb, it's advisable to cite a source for anything likely to raise eyebrows – something that might pass as "common knowledge" is probably okay uncited. - Nat Krause 06:04, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- OK. But where would the best place be to provide citations or references ? I think that flow of the main article will be broken if all references are provided in the body text. The question of "common knowledge" is, of course, relative. It depends what source material one is familiar with. The bibliogrpahical list at the end of the article is really very sparse. It would be helpful to some readers if reading material or references could be provided at the end with "chapter" headings for each segment of the main article. Possibly it'sa bit late to do that now. --Stephen Hodge 18:03, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Certainly agreed that "common knowledge" is a fuzzy concept at best -- Wikipedia often goes way too far in leaving everything uncited. As for the best way to cite sources, I wouldn't worry too much about the format right now (almost any editor can fix formatting, but you have special expertise that allows you to reference information). The standards aren't very well established yet. I think we have some kind of new footnote system, but I don't know very much about it. For the time being, I would go with a reference in the format (Dōgenson, 1955) or whatever. We can sort it out later.
- I'm all too aware that the current bibliography is sparse -- actually, it was nonexistent until I started it with a few books a couple days ago! If you could add some more general references that you think are good, that would be appreciated. I think current, informal Wikipedia practice prefers to have all the references at the end, rather than each section, so it's probably better just to use a short reference (lastname, year) in the text. - Nat Krause 09:50, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- This Digha Nikaya (click on the footnote) (http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/1Digha-Nikaya/Digha1/01-brahmajala-e.htm#_ftn16) has "the sexual act" as the translation of Gàma-dhammà, in a context that clearly refers to the precepts. Thanissaro Bhikku agrees (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn02.html), as does TW Rhys-Davids (Buddhist Suttas, p189). I stipulate that in other contexts, these sutras from the first section of the DN discourage wanderers from, e.g. going to puppet shows and listening to drummers, but that is besides the point. (To anticipate an objection, just How Old is the Sutta Pitaka (http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebsut056.htm), anyway? Wynne ably defends the idea that it is fairly old after all.) Buddhaghosa thought the 3rd precept was about sex (http://www.dhammastudy.com/Vsm01.html), too. Edward Conze concurred (Buddhist Scriptures, p71 in my edition). So did the author of the Brahma Net Sutra (http://www.sinc.sunysb.edu/Clubs/buddhism/bns/bnstext.htm#m3). Bernard Faure concurs (The Red Thread, p92. A fine work that I hope to read through someday).
- Now listen up: What Ven H. Saddhatissa says may well be true. But it requires a much tougher standard of proof than one or two cites; Which exposition of the precepts, do texts match, are translators in consensus, is there evidence that actual schools taught or still teach the more restrictive doctrine? As for format, I can't answer that. But as for the other issue, the Buddhism wiki probably doesn't need the cites I give above. Those would be for an eventual article on Buddhism and Sexuality, which would also want to cite Lust for Enlightenment by John Stevens and Prisoners of Shangri-La by Donald Lopez. The cites the current article needs, if is to expand the scope of the 3rd precept, would be precisely the points that are most controversial. --Munge 05:01, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Thanks, Munge, your comment. I note that you suggest we click on the footnote for DN01, but I fear that you yourself have not so in your eagerness to establish what was not in question. Gāma-dhamma does not mean "the sexual act", but "rustic", "the practice of country folk". The word here for "the sexual act" is methuna. Anyway, I am not disputing that the meaning of kāmesu micchācāra was narrowed down from a general "wrong indulgence in objects of desire" to "sexual misconduct" but one can see that there must have been a shift in meaning from the general to the specific or else methuna would have been used at the outset as in DN 01 and DN 02. Moreover, the grammatical form of kāma here in the locative plural cannot have that meaning literally, and if you look at the usage of kāmesu in other constructions throughout the Nikāyas, you will see that it always means "[regarding] objects of desire" or "[regarding] sensual objects" and is rendered thus by most translators including those you quote. You could also look at comments in the relevent a.t.thakathās for those occurances. Generally, kāmesu is understood as a short form for pañcā kāma-gu.nesu "[with reference] to the five sensual objects". You might find the Cha.t.tha Sa`ngāyana CD of the Tipitaka a useful tool to check usage through the Pali canon.
- Anyway, I think you are making heavy weather of this – though I am not sure what you mean by "now listen up" as it is not an idiom we use here. I have no intention of searching around for other citations confirming a wider understanding of kāmesu micchācāra, though they exist, as I have better things to do. Anybody reading the article in conjunction with this conversation will realize the commonly accepted and conventional meaning is "indulgence in sexual misconduct" and that this meaning arose at a fairly early stage as a kind of gloss on the term, although it cannot be derived literally from the grammar of the term. They will also realize that some authorative scholars who know their Pali grammar understand that there was this shift of meaning and find it useful to remind people of this. As another writer puts it, "Normally one vows 'not to misuse the senses', bearing in mind the Buddha's saying that nothing stimulates each of a man's senses so much as the sight, sound, touch, etc of a woman, nor a woman's than that of a man. Undoubtedly this is so, but it is capable of a wider interpretation. Each of these rules is there to train us towards an ideal of conduct. Mere chastity is only the beginning; total control of our appetites, of our craving, is the end in view." --Stephen Hodge 01:31, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
- Are you certain Gāma-dhamma does not refer to "the village way", distinguished in this context from the way of wanderers in the forest, whose ascetic behavior is distinct from householders who procreate? That's how I read the footnote, and it seems to me to be at least an avenue of investigation, if not self-evident. And while the Atthakas certainly seem to encourage austerities, I don't recall that they do so in the context of the precepts. (By the way, their use of wordplay seems to require a great deal of intellectual curiousity to decipher, making it hard for me to believe that they merely advocate samatha and not vispassana, as someone, not you, indicated on these pages a while back.) In American English idioms, "partying" might mean sensual experiences or sexual ones, depending on context; I imagine I might find an analagous UK idiom or euphemism in Partridge's dictionary of catch phrases. Again, I am not necessarily denying your conclusion, only questioning how you got to it. I appreciate your calling the CD to my attention. --Munge 04:45, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
- "The village way" could be used as an acceptable translation of grāma-dhamma, in other words, rural customs or observances, probably used in contrast to urban customs or observances, rather than the ascetic behaviour of the forest-dwellers as you suggest. It can also just mean "vulgar", "low" or, to fit the context, even "licentious".
- As for your digression on the A.t.thakas, I can understand your puzzlment – if you re-read my message, you will see that I was talking about the Atthakathās, not the A.t.taka section of the SN. It's probably my fault since I assumed that you would know of the Athakathās. They are the set of commentaries on the five Pali Nikāyas, mainly redacted by Buddhaghosa on the basis of earlier Sinhalese works. Perhaps a Wiki article is needed.
- But concerning your comments on the Atthakas, I am thinking of appending some additional information on them. Research has moved on a bit since Gomez wrote his paper on them – current thinking is that they belonged to a non-Buddhist group which joined the Sangha very early and had their material incorporated. This is not as surprising as it may sound – it has long been recognized that many of the Dharmapāda and Udāna verses, for example, are also found in contemporary Jain scriptures, the Mahā-Bharata and elsewhere, suggesting that such verses were part of a common sramanera heritage. However, scholars still concur that most of them primarily advocate a samatha approach rather that vipassanā. In fact, the vipassanā approach may not even have been taught by the Buddha or else was a method devised for those whose meditative abilities were slight. Note that the word vipassanā itself, in its technical sense, only occurs about two otr three times in the Pali canon.
- Regarding the CD, you can get this just for the cost of postage from your nearest Vipassana Research Centre – look on www.vri.dhamma.org for details. Even without knowing much Pali, you should find it provides hours of fun.--Stephen Hodge 00:16, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
- I cannot entirely agree. The PTS Pali-English dictionary has gama dhamma (http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/ddsa/getobject_?HTML.a.0:5648./projects/artfl0/databases/dicos/philologic/pali/IMAGE/) as "doings with women-folk...vile conduct". And it is not an isolated example. For another case where context determines whether an idiom connotes community life or misogyny see also Monier Williams' entry on matra-grama (http://www.ibiblio.org/sripedia/ebooks/mw/0800/mw__0840.html), which can mean "the faults of womankind" or "of a village". I will omit another, more profane example. I note with interest Monier Williams' entry on Gamin (http://www.ibiblio.org/sripedia/ebooks/mw/0300/mw__0386.html), one of whose meanings is "having sexual intercourse with". Mr. Rhys-David's translation and his footnote are, by today's standards, euphemistic. And sutras often use idioms, wordplay, and allusion. Perhaps the sounds of gama and kama struck someone as similar. And perhaps the "ga" sound in linga inspired some ancient wisecracking wanderer.
- Moreover, because some of DN's intended audience may have been familiar with the Chandogya Upanishad, book 5, section 10 (see [1] (http://www.godserver.com/godcommunity/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=6), [2] (http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbe01/sbe01104.htm)) it seems to me plausible that any such listeners would naturally make a connection between fate of the "village-dwellers" who follow the "way of the fathers" (pitryana); as distinct from that of the "forest dwellers" and their "austerities" who traverse the "way of the gods" (devayana). Of course, fatherhood implies certain behaviors.
- I have provided an excess of citations and a few speculations in support of the rarely-questioned link between the 3rd precept and sexual behavior; I have defended with some reluctance the name of Mr. Rhys-Davids and his modest footnote; and I have admonished you, not without gratitude. I believe it was Paracelsus who said "much learning, many errors". --Munge 03:28, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
- Dear Munge, I am not sure what you are trying to achieve with this prolonged nit-picking. Do you really think it adds anything of value for the general reader ? It seems to me that, as usual, in your eagerness to "admonish" me, you fail to notice the matchstick, if not beam, in your own eyes. For example, your quote from MW for māt.r-grāma (spelt wrongly by you) "the faults of womankind" or "of a village" is garbled. In fact, for māt.r-grāma, MW has 'the aggregate of mother' = the female sex [in general], while you have truncated the entry which is translated by "the faults of womankind" – you have missed out the all-important do.sa. Note there is no mention of "[faults] of a village". Your case is further undermined by MW's entry for grāma-dharma for which he has "the observances or customs of a village" with no mention of sexual matters, although, indeed, these may be implicit.
- I am also aware of the PED entry for gāma-dhamma. Philologically, I have reservations about this meaning when taking the entire sematic range of gāma (vllage etc) into consideration. I will return to this below. We are discussing the meaning of gāma-dhamma in the context of the DN 01 occurence. Since it immediately follows methuna, I am not convinced that it should be understood as a virtul synonym. Moreover, in all the atthakathās (commentaries), mainly by Buddhaghosa, which comment on gāma-dhamma, always and only give this: gāma-dhammāti gāmavāsīna.m dhammā "gāma-dhamma [means] the dhamma of village-dwellers. Additionally, you might like to consider these Chinese equivalents 猥法 and 世間弊穢法, used by Xuanzang and others for grāma-dharma. Not much overt suggestion of sex here either !
- However, in the midst of your confusion, you may have inadvertantly hit on a solution. As you will note, you seem to be unsure what the Sanskrit equivalents are for the Pali gāma in this context. Due to the vagaries of Prakrit phonology, gāma, taken in isolation, can be either gāma or grāma. The former, as a derivative of GAM "go", will also bear the well-known sexual connotations, while the latter is just "village" etc. As you will also be aware, it is recognized that mistakes were made when Prakrits (such as Pāli) were converted into Sanskrit, due to phonological ambiguity. Perhaps something of this has come into play here, and so I wonder whether the supposed sexual connotation of gāma-dhamma is a phantom meaning due to semantic contamination – there was a degree of Sanskritization
- Your suggestion that there is an implicit contrast here between "village-dwellers"and the "forest dwellers" is not unreasonable, although the normal contrast in early Buddhism is rustic / urban.
- Finally, if, for some strange reason, you want to continue this discussion, perhaps we could adjourn to my personal Talk page so this Discussion page does not get even more clogged up with trivia.--Stephen Hodge 20:49, 7 May 2005 (UTC)
Comments of a nun
(note: the following was written by anonymous #83.116.12.198 and added to the article itself. They belong here on the talk page, and so I am putting them here now - Nat Krause)
April 24. Plea to the administrator of the Wikipedia page on Buddhism:
The editor of your main entry on Buddhism seems to be an adept of the Theravada school. This has led to some misrepresentations of the Mahayana school of Buddhism while at the same time the history of Theravada is not full and frank as it should be. As a nun who ordained 20 years ago, starting in he Theravada school of Buddhism and converting to the Mahayana I think I should give it another try, after my yesterday additions to the page were deleted.
The scribe seems to be a little bit obsessed with the Tathagatagarbha-theory. S/he writes: 1. "Some Mahayana Buddhist scriptures (notably the Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra and the Srimala Sutra, amongst others) aim at encouraging the Buddhist practitioner to perceive the indwelling Buddha-nature, the "True Self" (as opposed to the impermanent, suffering-prone "worldly self") of the Buddha inherent in all sentient beings. Such a tathagatagarbha vision is said to usher in the realisation of Great Nirvana." And in a later section s/he returns to the same subject: 2. "However, in a number of major Mahayana sutras (e.g. the Mahaparinirvana Sutra, the Tathagatagarbha Sutra, the Srimala Sutra, amongst others), the Buddha is presented as modifying this teaching and saying that there does truly exist an eternal, unchanging, blissful Buddhic essence (svabhava) in all sentient beings, which is the uncreated and deathless Buddha-nature or "True Self" of the Buddha himself. This immaculate Buddhic Self (Atman) is in no way to be construed as a mundane, impermanent, suffering "ego", of which it is the diametrical opposite."
Comment: When we speak about the Tathagatagarbha-theory we must understand what the Dharmakaya in this teaching means. The Srimala sutra, Wayman's (contested) translation on pp.98 and 99 says: "Lord, the cessation of suffering is not the destruction of Dharma. Why so? Because the Dharmakaya of the Tathagata is named 'cessation of suffering' and it is beginningless, uncreate, unborn, undying, free from death; permanent, seadfast, calm, eternal; intrinsically pure, free from all the defilement-store; and accompanied by Buddha natures more numerous than the sands of the Ganges, which are nondiscrete, knowing as liberated, and inconceivable. This Dharmakaya of the Tathagata when not free from the store of defilement is referred to as the Tathagatagarbha. "Lord, the knowledge of the Tathagatagarbha is the voidness knowledge of the Tathagatas."
I think that this teaching is too profound for the average highschool student who is in search of material for a paper. The scribe best deletes these two passages. The tibetan lamas too will bless him or her for it.
The scribe has the true but limited representation of the root 'budh': "....verbal root "√budh", meaning "to awaken or be enlightened"." Comment: I suggest s/he adds the classical Sanskrit meaning: wise.
- I don't think that "wise" is a meaning of the verbal root -- "wise" is an adjective. None of the standard Sanskrit dictionaries give "wise" as a meaning of the verbal root "buddh" so I suggest the addition be deleted because it is inaccurate.--Stephen Hodge 14:43, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The scribe has a passage on Buddhist logic and says: "However, as thinkers like Nagarjuna have pointed out, Buddhism is not simply a rejection of the concept of existence (or of meaning, etc.) but of the hard and fast distinction between existence and nonexistence, or rather between being and nothingness."
Comment: When we read Nagarjuna's Mulamadhyamakakarika we see that he fiercely opposes the views of both 'being' and 'nothingness', but instead demonstrates the absense of self, of ens, of substance. I frankly don't see what a neccessarily too brief passage on Nagarjuna could add to an already very long lemma.
The scribe has: "Buddhism has evolved into myriad schools that can be roughly grouped into three types: Nikaya, Mahayana, and Vajrayana...."
Comment: the tibetan traditions deny the distinct difference between Mahayana and Vajrayana, and the japanese Tendai tradition also teaches both side by side. They all say that there are only two mainstreams: Theravada and Mahayana. Notably in the Lankavatara sutra we find a distinction between three schools - that ultimately are denied and collapse into the One Buddhayana - : a Sravaka, or Listener Vehicle belonging to what your scribe calls the Nikaya strand, the Pratyekabuddha-yana, i.e. those who are on the lowest steps of the bodhisattva ladder but refrain from teaching, and the Bodhisattva-yana, those who are on the way to Buddhahood through cultivation of the Dharma combined with beneficial actions in the world.
The scribe has: "The word "Buddha" denotes not just a single religious teacher who lived in a particular epoch, but a type of person, of which there have been many throughout the course of cosmic time."
Comment: I am aware of the fact that the Theravada thourougly hates the Mahayana teaching where it postulates uncountable non-human Buddhas that all at this one time teach the beings according to their needs. But if you pretend giving a true account of Buddhism in its entirity you cannot avoid to at least mentioning other Buddha names, preferably without any expalation, as the Theravada is fundamentally incapable of grasping the truth behind the names.
The scribe has: "....the Pali Canon. This is considered to be the oldest of the surviving Buddhist canons, and its sutras are accepted as authentic in every branch of Buddhism."
Comment: If s/he were to be honest s/he should add that the present-day Theravada school is not that old. Of old there have been two branches of Theravada Buddhism: the now defunct Northern Theravada school that flourished along the Silk Road (and left the above mentioned Agamas, and the Southern Theravada school with its present-day Pali canon. The first mention of this latter school does not predate the 7e century (see Andre Bareau in his Les Sectes bouddhique du Petit Vehicule, the entry on Theravada). The present-day teachings of the Pali school incorporates a number of aspects out of the now defunct Sarvastivada and other ancient Hinayana schools. As an example I give you a text that, within the Theravada, is recited when transferring merits to the deceased (without the neccessary diacriticals: yatha varivaha pura paripurenti sagaram evemeva itodinnam petanam upakappati ... etc. This text occurs in Buddhaghosa's oeuvre, a first cent. BC Theravada scholar from Bodhgaya in India, who borrowed it from the then much despised and no longer existing Rajagriya-tradition, one of the 18 early Hinayana schools.
And then again, the Pali canon is in all Mahayana schools considered as valuable as any other canon. However the Tibetan and Chinese schools for their teachings in the indispensible basic concepts rely on the Agamas, a collection of manuscripts that are similar to the Pali Nikayas though not the same. There are highstanding, academic, comparative studies between the Nikaya and Agama sutras available.
Responses
- There are a number of things to be said in response to the above. I'm not going to respond to most of the points at the present, although I hope others will do so as they see fit. I did leave a message on anonymous' talk page on a few points; for instance, I think she is mistaken in believing that the main editor or editors of this page are followers of Theravada. The only substantial point I want to make concerns her a comments, re: "....the Pali Canon. This is considered to be the oldest of the surviving Buddhist canons, and its sutras are accepted as authentic in every branch of Buddhism." I think she is right in pointing out that we are needlessly conflating the Pali Canon with the agamas (a.k.a. the Nikayas) -- the former is the best known among the various versions of the latter. The rest of the passage is true with regard to the agamas. I will make this correction in the article. Note that to say "it is regarded as the oldest" does not necessarily mean that it is very old (should this be clearer in the article)? - Nat Krause 09:01, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Reply to the Nun: Thank you very much for your heartfelt comments. I have given them serious thought and consideration, as it is not every day that I get such comments from a Buddhist nun! That was a surprise. Firstly, I think it is perhaps unfair to accuse me of being "a little bit obsessed with the tathagatagarbha-theory". I simply want to ensure that this important area of Buddha-Dharma (often minimized, neglected or distorted in books/articles on Buddhism)is adequately represented on Wiki. I don't think that my two brief mentions of "the True Self" (in the Buddha-nature context) in a long article on "Buddhism" could reasonably qualify as "obsession".
Secondly, you speak of "tathagatagarbha-theory". Can you tell me where the Buddha ever, in any place, at any time, calls his teaching on the tathagatagarbha a "theory"? It is presented as Dharma, pure and simple (theory has no place in Dharma).
- It should be noted that the nun's primary language might not be English. "Tathagatagarbha-theory" is not an unreasonable translation for Tathagatagarbha doctrine. User:Eequor/Signature/Syllabic 06:14, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Thirdly, you are absolutely right to quote from the Srimala Sutra, as this is indeed an important tathagatagarbha sutra. But that sutra does not conflict with what I have written, nor do I conflict with it. The Tathagatagarbha is, as you completely correctly say, the Dharmakaya - and in the Srimala Sutra, this is explained as the Dharmakaya which is still (temporarily) concealed from the view of the mundane being by adventitious defilements. Those defilements, however, are not intrinsic to the Garbha. The knowledge of voidness (shunyata) which you refer to in your quotation from the text relates to voidness of certain specific negative, undesirable qualities. To quote the text itself (I use the translation of Dr. Shenpen Hookham, who is a Tibetan Buddhist nun who has specialised in the Tathagatagarbha doctrine and the Srimala Sutra and gained her Oxford University Ph.D. in that area):
"There are two Tathagatagarbha Shunyata knowledges. The Tathagatagarbha that dwells apart from the sheaths of all the kleshas [mental afflictions] is empty of any knowledge that is not liberation. The Buddhadharmas of the Tathagatagarbha that do not dwell apart from it and the knowledge of liberation are not empty of the inconceivable attainments beyond the sands of the Ganges."
A central point of the Srimala Sutra doctrine is that Emptiness means empty of that which is corrupted by the kleshas, but that the Emptiness of the Tathagatagarbha is not empty of the positive Buddhic Knowing (jnana) which is replete with virtuous qualities.
The Mahaparinirvana Sutra also explicates Emptiness as emptiness of what is impermanent and suffering.
So, I don't think there is any conflict between what I have written on the Tathagatagarbha on Wikipedia and the key texts which you and I have cited. As for dropping all mention of this subject, as you urge: I wonder why I should do that? Unless I have distorted the doctrine (which I am always open to admitting, if tathagatagarbha-sutric evidence is presented to me to that effect), I don't see why readers (high-school students or otherwise) of Wikipedia should not be allowed to read teachings which are rooted in certain important Mahayana sutras and which have all too often been denied the full light of day by those who feel uncomfortable with such manifestations of Buddha-Dharma. I agree with you that there is always a danger that these teachings can be misunderstood (I believe they frequently are) - but that is no reaon not to reveal them at all. Otherwise the Buddha would never have spoken a word of his Dharma in the first place (some Zen texts actually say he did not speak Dharma at all, so maybe you are right to ask me to remain silent!). As long as one does not misconstrue the True Self (cataphatically envisaged) as a gigantic, puffed-up, worldly-skandhaic ego - then I think it is legitimate to speak of the True Self and the Tathagatagarbha and Buddha-dhatu doctrines in any intelligent forum (which I take Wikipedia to be).
Thank you again very much for your comments. You have (valuably) made me re-check my motives and the accuracy of what I have written. Best wishes to you in Dharma - from Tony TonyMPNS 10:20, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
announcing policy proposal
This is just to inform people that I want Wikipedia to accept a general policy that BC and AD represent a Christian Point of View and should be used only when they are appropriate, that is, in the context of expressing or providing an account of a Christian point of view. In other contexts, I argue that they violate our NPOV policy and we should use BCE and CE instead. See Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/BCE-CE Debate for the detailed proposal. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:55, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
- Well, hopefully it's not just to inform people, but to spark a debate. Now, I'm not 100% sure that this is a POV issue--I think of it as an accuracy and standards issue, like any other convention I learned in school. Which is not to say it isn't abunbantly clear to me that BC and AD have no place in a modern encyclopedia--other than in articles about dating systems. -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 04:21, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
Etymology of "Buddha"
Somebody recently changed the explanation for the term "Buddha", writing that "Buddha is a word in the ancient Indian spoken language of Pāli and its written counterpart Sanskrit". This is inaccurate and ill-informed. Neither Pali nor Sanskrit were written languages at the time of the historical Buddha. Both subsequently became written languages. It is also debatable whether Pali should be considered, by implication, a colloquial language. Current thinking is that it was a kind of offical chancery language used in Magadha and Kosala. It is unlikely to have been a everyday spoken language as, for example, the anomalous presence of the many Sanskritisms, phonetic and lexical, found in Pali. I have reverted the article to its previous form.--Stephen Hodge 23:23, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
Origins
Somebody has clumsily amended a part of the account of Gotama's origins. The original was fine as it was but the revision is inaccurate and introduces concepts alien to Buddhism such as "Messiah". Additionally the quality of the English leaves much to be desired. As a contributor to Wiki, I really wish that some people would first think if they have the qualifications to add anything constructive and accurate to articles before wading in and making totally unncessary changes. I have reverted the article to the earlier satisfactory version --Stephen Hodge 23:32, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
Three Jewels
ElBodhisattva (Am I the only person who hates the childish way some people feel they have to hide their identities -- what's wrong with real names ? Something to be ashamed of ? No wonder few qualified scholars bother with Wikipedia !) has been busy again. A gloss "(the Teaching)" has been added to the Dharma part of the Three Jewels. This is debatable or, rhater, restricts the connotation of the term. In this context "Dharma" can also mean adhigama-dharma (the Dharma as realization), which is not "the Teaching".--Stephen Hodge 23:52, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
- Thank you for addressing these topics. I have reverted all the edits by ElBodhisattva because I disagreed with them, which is not to say that he is unwelcome to try additional productive edits in the future. I thought this question about the Three Jewels was an interesting topic. A lot of the other stuff added, such as the misstatements about Pali, in my opinion don't really merit discussion on the talk page, so please don't feel obligated to spend your time discussing them here unless you are otherwise inclined to do so ... or unless it becomes a recurring problem in the article, at which point it because necessary to hash out. - Nat Krause 05:30, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
Vandalism
These pages seem to be attracting persistent vandalism recently. Has anybody taken the time to report the IDs of the vandals to the Wiki people ? I believe they have an Ongoing Vandalism page. One can also ask to have the atrticle "locked", usually for a month and thus hide the additions of these idiotic people. In fact, the various sections in Wiki Help relating to vandalism make interesting reading.--Stephen Hodge 01:45, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
Budhism a religion?
Hi! I've been talking with some budhists, and they tend to be skeptical about calling Budhism a "religion". Moreover, calling Budha the "g-d of the budhists" is considered by many as utter ignorance. What is the view of the active editors of this page? --Pinnecco 14:58, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Interesting question! Although many Buddhists deny it, I think, on balance, it is fair to call Buddhism a religion (at least in part, and certainly in its Mahayana version), since its founder (or re-discoverer), the Buddha, made claims about reality which are usually categorised as being of a religious nature. For instance, he taught that death is not the end of consciousness, but that the individual consciousness travels "upwards" (into happier, heavenly realms of existence) if the being has been virtuous during his/her lifetime and "downwards" (into more suffering modes, including hell) if the being has been more selfish and cruel. Then there is the idea of reincarnation or rebirth: beings are caught up in an almost endless cycle of life, death, rebirth, life, death, rebirth, with the suffering or happiness experienced each time being in significant measure influenced by that person's karma (a very religious concept, I would have thought). Most of all, there is the notion of Nirvana - a transcendent realm or state of ineffable Reality which is eternal, blissful and beyond all adequate human conception. In the Mahayana, there is additionally the idea that the Buddha is present in all places, at all times - a very "religious"-sounding notion, it seems to me - and that faith in the Buddha, coupled with good works (or without them, in some interpretations), can lead one after one's death into a Buddhist Paradise (a "Buddha-Field"), from where one will definitely attain Nirvana. These are just some of the features of Buddhism which make of it a religion. Of course, that does not mean that Buddhism is not also a lot of other things at the same time. But seeing Buddhism as a religion (especially in its Mahayana manifestation) should not be a cause for shock, horror and scandal (although one never knows!). Almost overwhelmingly, the Buddha is not viewed as "God" by Buddhists - but there are aspects of Mahayana and Tantric Buddhism that come very close to (if not enter into) a panentheistic or "theos-en-panist" ("God in all") vision of the ultimate "Adibuddha" (see the Wiki entry, God in Buddhism). All good wishes to you. - Tony. TonyMPNS 16:30, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Other principles
Somebody has made a point that the statement about action's effects can't come until the next life is confusing. Not only so but i think it's completely wrong to say that buddhism assumes that. If i am to hold out the apple and let it go, the effect of that will be apple falling down... now not in the next life. Granted some karma can only manifest itself much later, but to say that any effect must be in the different cycle of existance is quite rediculous. User:Beta m/sig
Proposal concerning era designations
A proposal has been made concerning the appropriate uses of BCE/CE and BC/AD era designations. As this is one of the most prominent Wikipedia articles to use the BCE/CE style, I thought you guys should know about it so that you could offer feedback. Kaldari 22:49, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Women attaining Buddha-hood?
Hi, I have a quick question I was wondering if someone could shed some light on for me. In the article it states that "Anyone can free themselves from suffering as Gautama did, regardless of age, gender, or caste." Now, as far as women attaining enlightenment, from what I understand there is a small section in The Lotus Sutra that discusses this possibility, but I was wondering if there were other sources that talk about this as well?
Thanks! Airosche 02:12, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- In the Pali Canon, the Buddha agrees to ordain women because—despite the serious problems that this document claims the Buddha said it would cause—he agrees that a woman's capacity for enlightenment is equal to a man's. Some other Buddhist traditions, I believe, especially in Confucian East Asia, had the idea that women can become Buddhas or can enter the Pure Land only if they are first reborn as men. It also appears to be generally assumed that all Supreme Buddhas are male at the time of their final enlightenment. Consider that some Buddhist texts list quite a number of (seemingly arbitrary) characteristics that all Buddhas supposedly have, e.g. they are tall, they are born in India, etc., etc. Apparently, one of these characteristics is that they are male. - Nat Krause 08:50, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)