Talk:Brahman

Perhaps the Devanagari versions of the words Brahman, Brahma and Brahmin would help clear up the confusion that is usually found. I'm afraid I don't know how to encode Devanagari into these documents, so let me attempt to 'spell out' the pronunciation of these words. 'Brahman' (as in the unchanging and underlying Reality) is pronounced 'brah-man', with both vowels short, resembling the 'u' in 'up'. 'Brahma' (the first of the Hindu Trinity) is pronounced 'brah-maa'. The first syllable is pronounced identically to the first syllable of Brahman, but the second syllable is pronounced like 'fa' in 'father'. 'Brahmin' (the caste) can be pronounced in two ways: the Anglicised version, and the original Sanskrit version. The Anglicised pronunciation is 'bra-min', where the 'a' is pronounced like the 'a' in 'cat'. The Sanskrit pronunciation is 'braah-ma-Na'. The first syllable is stressed and pronounced like 'fa' in 'father', and the next two syllables are unstressed with both vowels pronounced like the 'u' in 'up'. The 'N' in the third syllable is not the normal 'n' we use in English (as in the words 'nice' and 'naval'), but a retroflex 'n' (the tip of the tongue should be near the palate and bent backwards). Gokul 06:01, May 16, 2004 (UTC)

Changes

This article is quite small and doesn't really do the trick. I've started with a major upheaval and would like to trace its early origins and eventual metamorphosis over the years. Also, the quoted analyses of so many great Hindu systems to be found in the Upanishads, the Yoga Sutras, the Tantras, and Hindu saints in particular like Shankaracharya, Chaitanya, Ramakrishna and Vivekananda, Shri Aurobindo, Ramana Maharshi, etc. would greatly benefit the page and shed better light on the subject, in my opinion, than any other possible summarizing most others could do. I'm in a rush doing volunteer work and studies, but I'll keep trying to add occasionally. I hope others put in their ideas and maybe we can make this a Featured Article sometime. I guess the only problem would be that one couldn't have any adequate pictures... though since AUM is integrally tied to the concept of Brahman we could do neat things with that. --LordSuryaofShropshire 17:10, Jul 1, 2004 (UTC)

My Lord Surya: You made the following change:

from

brahmán on the other hand, is a priest, one of the Brahmin caste (brahmin being an adjective). Etymologically, the word may be related to latin flamen (a priest), supporting the "trifunctional hypothesis" of Georges Dumézil.

to

Brahmin is another term with the same root, which refers to the highest of the four castes, the Brahmins, who by virtue of their purity and priesthood are held to have such powers.

and marked it as minor. How is this a minor change (such as correcting punctuation etc)? The flamen comparison you removed without comment, even though I gave my source and quoting a "hypothesis", making it NPOV. I know that flamen=brahman is doubtful, but the possibility deserves mention. So could you please restore it.

More involved is the brahmän : brahmin issue. My immediate source is the Monier-Williams dictionary. We are dealing with a chronological problem here. In vedic sanskrit, accent was important, and it was enough to distinguish "prayer" (accent on first syllable) from "priest" (accent on second syllable). At that time, "brahmin" was a simple adjective relating to these concepts. Later, it seems the distinction became too subtle, and the former adjective became the name for the members of the caste. Maybe you did not know this, but then that's what an ecyclopedia is for (not just for editing, but also for learning new things). The point of noting accent and gender of brahman "prayer" is to contrast it with "brahman" priest, which you removed. Could you maybe add your notion of brahmin purity without removing this carefully researched information? thank you -- Dbachmann 13:12, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I reverted my etymological stuff, making your romantic description of ritual and sacrifice a separate paragraph (although I doubt it belongs under a heading "Etymology and origin of the name Brahman"). I hope you can live with this. Dbachmann 14:38, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Your sarcasm aside, I'm quite aware of the linguistic changes witnessed from Vedic to Upanishadic and post-Vedantic Hinduism. However, your flamen thesis, regardless of its source, is frivolous and a minority opinion at best; also, my aim is to clearly delineate the differences between ancient, middle and modern usages of the term, which contribute greatly to understanding by modern readers. By leaving unexplained diacritics (which most people, who don't study any sort of linguistics, let alone Sanskrit) you confuse people. I hope your constitution can bear with the possibility of modification of your immaculate writing. --LordSuryaofShropshire 18:03, Aug 8, 2004 (UTC)

agreed, let's leave our sarcasm aside. I admit I was disgruntled at your unexplained change. I would have taken much less offence had you presented your reasons, even if I don't agree with them. I will not interfere with your exposition of Hindu Brahman as divine reality etc. This is simply about the etymology section, where the word itself should be explained. brahman and flamen are a perfect equation according to latin and indic sound-laws. How is it frivolous to say a word meaning "priest" in Sanskrit may be related to a word meaning "priest" in Latin? Are you implying that Hindu religion is in some way more sublime than roman religion? The reason the equation is disputed is not because it is faulty, but because there are other, equally convincing explanations for flamen. Now if you would call frivolous the etymological connection of brahman and bulge I could understand. But this is not disrespect, it is language change. The concept is by no means degraded because its name derives from an ultimately mundane root. The hypothesis brahman:flamen is well known, widely quoted in etymological dictionaries, has weighty implications and certainly has a place in a section on the etymology of brahman. If you want to add that it's probably a minority view, that's fine with me. Ah, yes, and if you expand the explanation, giving a deeper perspective of how the word evolved in Vedic/Sanskrit, rather than removing information, I will of course be thankful and will shed no tears for my then-superseded formulations. Dbachmann 19:26, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I have no such pretensions about the sublimity of any religion or cultural paradigm. I am perfectly aware that myriad connections between what are now considered European and Indian languages exist. Flamen and Brahman have little of an implicit or explicit relationship, in spite of the notoriety of the thesis. I have also not removed your information in this most recent of edits and hope that we can call this a fair resolution. --LordSuryaofShropshire 21:15, Aug 8, 2004 (UTC)

alright... look, I am aware that you put some effort into this article, and I don't want to spoil it for you. So how about this: have a look at the Brahma disambiguation page. These words are all etymologically related. It's not obvious that the resolution of the etymological connections have to be in this Brahman article, they could be in any of these, or in a separate one, say, Brahman (etymology). So how about I take my flamen and go away to a separate article resolving the history of all these terms in more detail (explaining the diacritics etc. in all leisure). Dbachmann 06:45, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)