Talk:Bovine spongiform encephalopathy

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Contents

1 Comments from 2003 2 Material deleted from article 2.1 [The following is offered as contrary to the prion proposal, based upon more recent information]: 3 table formatting 4 research on treatment 5 vCJD vs CJD 6 removed experimental treatment paragraph

Comments from 2003

Given the number of cases there have been in Europe, this article is a real shame in its current state Bon d'une cythare

This article definitely needs more work, including whole-sale wikification. --Dante Alighieri 19:11 21 May 2003 (UTC)

I would suggest someone peek into Promedmail.org.

That prions cause BSE is more controversial than this article suggests. There is credible scientific evidence that prions are a result of BSE not its cause. There are at least two other credible hypothesis with good scientific evidence to explaining the cause of BSE/TSE and nvCJD. Organophosphate posioning, which is already known to produce similar brain lesions. Excess Managnese causing a copper deficiency is another possible explaination.

Credible scientific evidence is present both against and for the prion hypothesis. The fact that cannibalism of infected cattle is the main mode of transmission smacks of other prion diseases, particularly kuru in humans, occurring in the Fore tribe of New Guinea via ritual cannibalism of the brains of ancestors. Prions do not have to be the known cause. The cause of Alzheimer's disease may be due to one of two proteins, or to environmental aluminium. This does not make the amyloid cascade hypothesis any less valid as the most likely cause of Alzheimer's disease. We do not yet understand enough about the way prions work, and this is probably what has led to the statement above.

Secondly, the organophosphate theory states that prions are the infective agents, which again resembles the beta amyloid protein in Alzheimer's disease (see http://www.positivehealth.com/permit/Articles/Environment/organo.htm for the reference). Organophosphates are simply one way for these prions to be generated.

Also, how does excess manganese cause a copper deficiency? True, radioactive strontium can replace calcium in bone due to their similar chemical properties and oxidation states. However, manganese oxidation states tend to be higher than those of copper.

Finally, look at the epidemiology. How could "epidemics" of BSE occur due to excess manganese? I doubt that large quantities of manganese suddenly appear in feed all through the United Kingdom.

I smell efforts to defend the US' shoddy practices, too...eg passing on reassuring mouthnoises from politicians.Kwantus 16:58, 27 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I agree with Bon d'une cythare that this article is mighty US-biased; the 1999/2000? European BSE epidemic should be mentioned. -- till we *) 15:45, Dec 30, 2003 (UTC)

The article seems to place the blame for BSE squarely on the shoulders of the United Kingdom, but the occurrence of a case in the US demonstrates that the same procedures (viz. slaughterhouse feed meal) are probably being carried out by at least some US farmers.

Material deleted from article

I moved this section from the article, because it isn't supported by known facts. See my annotations below. --Sheldon RamptonSheldon Rampton

[The following is offered as contrary to the prion proposal, based upon more recent information]:

There have never been any confirmed cases of a communicable prion disease, and In Britain there should be an epidemic of vCJD from consumption of BSE beef by now; this has not yet materialized.

It's simply ridiculous to say that there are no confirmed cases of a communicable prion disease. Scrapie, Kuru and BSE and transmissible mink encephalopathy have all been transmitted in laboratory experiments. Moreover, there is a voluminous body of research, beginning with the research for which Stanley Prusiner won his Nobel Prize, detailing the involvement of the "prion protein" (PrP) specifically in TSE transmission. Prusiner has succeeded in inducing the disease in lab animals simply by modifying their PrP gene, and he has shown that once the disease is thus induced, it can be transmitted to other lab animals. As for the claim that there "should be an epidemic of vCJD by now," the number of human cases thus far (143, last time I checked) is perfectly within the range that scientists predicted in 1996 when the scientific evidence first appeared showing that BSE had passed into humans. At that time, leading scientists involved in TSE research stated that the number of cases in humans could end up being anywhere between a few dozen and a few million. 143 falls within that range (thankfully, near the low end). Given the long incubation period for TSEs, however, it is still possible that there may eventually be thousands of cases in humans. Hopefully that won't happen, but even if the total stops at 143, the results will be consistent with the prion hypothesis.

The fact is that even vegetarians have contracted vCJD, but out of caution the British Health Services did not wish to rule out the possibility that some form of BSE could be transmitted to humans through consumption.

I'm aware of one vegetarian who contracted vCJD in the UK. Maybe there are others I don't know about. The one I know of was a girl who worked in a pet shop where she came into frequent contact with animal feed derived from rendered British cattle. It's possible she got the disease through accidentally ingesting pet food (or from inhaling it; some TSE researchers such as Carleton Gajdusek believe that inhalation of dust from meat and bone meal may transmit the disease as easily as eating it). Moreover, some vegetarians actually eat meat surreptitiously or accidentally. In short, the existence of vCJD in a couple of vegetarians doesn't really tell us enough to seriously challenge the prion hypothesis.

Beef, in fact, does have many problems as a food source, and it might be a good thing to be aware of potential risks, however, consumption of BSE cattle alone is almost certainly not a valid threat for vCJD.

It's ridiculous to say that consumption of BSE cattle is "almost certainly" not a valid thread for vCJD, in light of the fact that every leading health agency and scientist involved in studying TSEs says that BSE cattle almost certainly are the source of vCJD. This sentence is approximately as defensible as saying that the earth "almost certainly" does not revolve around the sun!

Scrapie in sheep has been known for many years, and some few Elk in Montana and Wyoming also suffer from a similar condition. Professor Alan Ebringer, Kings College, London has studied the problem and found a potential link between Multiple Sclerosis and BSE; vCJD could be a more aggressive form of MS and BSE is very possibly a form of MS in cattle: http://www.kcl.ac.uk/kis/schools/life_sciences/life_sci/ebringerR.html

Ebringer belongs to a fairly small minority within the scientific community that still doubts the prion hypothesis. His doubts aren't "new information." It would be reasonable to say that a few scientists including Ebringer and Laura Manuelidis at Yale continue to doubt the prion hypothesis, but the mere existence of a few doubters doesn't disprove the hypothesis. As for scrapie in sheep and chronic wasting disease in Montana and Wyoming (and, more recently, Wisconsin), the fact that they've been around for years doesn't in any way invalidate the prion hypothesis. Scrapie and CWD are prion diseases. Many (not all) scientists in fact believe that BSE originated when scrapie passed from sheep into cows!

In any case, a discussion of doubts about the prion hypothesis belongs in the prion article before it belongs in the BSE article.

table formatting

The table added to the article should probably be converted to wiki table format. May attempt at a text version did not go well, and I'm out of time. Volunteers? ww 19:53, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Done. - MattTM 06:06, Sep 1, 2004 (UTC)

research on treatment

I suggest this section be moved to the vCJD article as it concerns that disease and not BSE. --69.5.156.155 06:42, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

vCJD vs CJD

I removed a sentence that stated, "because vCJD cases greatly outnumber those of CJD, the underestimate appears unlikely to be very significant." This sentence is simply untrue. According to the UK's National Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease Surveillance Unit (http://www.cjd.ed.ac.uk/), from 1990 to June 3, 2005 (the latest date for which figures are available as I write this), they recorded 1,045 cases of CJD of all forms, of which 150 were classified as vCJD. [1] (http://www.cjd.ed.ac.uk/figures.htm) Clearly, vCJD constitutes less than 15 percent of CJD cases even in the UK. --Sheldon Rampton 06:10, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

removed experimental treatment paragraph

the following paragraph was removed in a recent edit:

• On September 26, 2003, it was reported that an experimental treatment given to a Northern Irish teenager, Jonathan Simms, halted the progress of brain damage caused by Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (CJD). The drug, called pentosan polysulphate and commonly used to treat cystitis, was injected into the patient's brain. The patient's weight and heart rate returned to normal levels after receiving the treatment. Several other treatments have been proposed, including a vaccine, but none has reached human clinical trials, nor is any in even experimental use. There is currently no cure or even much palliative treatment for vCJD, a fatal disease. [2] (http://asia.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=healthNews&storyID=3515801)

i like this information, but am concerned that i have missed a reason that it has gone away. it probably was in the wrong place, i would like to hear any reasons why i shouldnt re-add it in a more appropriate place.

ah, i noticed after writing this that the link is broken, but a quick googling found this (http://www.beefusa.org/NEWSFatherSaysDrugHelpsSonwithMadCowDisease13730.aspx) and i am sure a cleaner/better site could be found with slightly more effort. also, pentosan polysulphate has two good offsite links. i will be happy to redo that paragraph, i am just concerned my lack of expertise here is causing me to miss a reason why it is no longer useful. Burgher 23:40, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

also, the new paragraph about the CDC's policies (and lack of) has good info. it did go in the right place. i combined it with the preceding paragraph about reporting CJD/vCJD. i also took out one sentence, i thought it was trying too hard to make the CDC look stupid. if there was a better way to explain the decision not to report it, i would like to have it in there. here is that sentence:

• The agency has not chosen to make CJD a reportable disease because "making it reportable is not necessarily directly helpful in surveillance, because in some states where it's reportable you may not get the physician to report it," said Dr. Ermias Belay, CDC's medical epidemiologist working on CJD.

Burgher 23:33, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)