Talk:Berry
From Academic Kids
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Berry and true berry
This part seems unclear
"Examples of berries are grape and tomato, but many other common fruits are considered true berries: The fruit of a citrus, like orange and lemon, is a modified berry termed a hisperidium. Date, avocado, persimmon, eggplant, guava, and red pepper are all berries to a botanist."
So what is the distinction between a berry and a true berry? are those fruits on the list at the bottom (date, avocado, etc) true berries, or just regular berries. What about the tomato and the grape? are they true berries? the introduction of the notion of true berry is unclear here. does it have any relationship to the layman's berries? (strawberry, raspberry, etc..)
- Because the layman's berry is so far from a berry in a botanical sense, it is necessary to differentiate between the two. Use of the terminology "true" preceding anything usually indicates the scientific definition (sort of arrogant, I know, but that is what it means). Thus, a "true berry" is a "berry" as defined by botanists, and a layman's berry is—well, just a term for certain other fruits. Maybe can be made clearer? - Marshman 02:30, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
one of the unclear parts is "many other fruits are berries: like the modified berry, the lemon" (paraphrased). the colon in that sentence makes it seem like the article is going to list more examples of true berries, but instead it starts talking about modified berries. then after the sentence on the modified berry it lists the true berries. is a modified berry considered a true berry? i think so, but it's not clear.
what if it looked something more like this:
"Examples of true berries are the grape and the tomato, as well as many other common fruits: date, avocado, persimmon, eggplant, guava, and red pepper. The fruit of a citrus, like the orange and the lemon, is a modified berry called a hisperidium."
Here i have changed the order of the list of true berries with the description of a citrus as a modified berry, and changed the wording a little bit to make it seem more clear (to me, at least).
- Although I would not bold "modified berry" since it is not really a term but just an adjective and a noun, your version is much better.- Marshman 17:10, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
and for the last paragraph:
"In common parlance and cuisine, the term "berry" refers to any small, sweet fruits; in this sense, a fruit which is not a berry at all in the botanical sense may be considered a culinary berry, such as the strawberry, whereas a botanists true berry need not be a culinary berry (for example, the tomato). Other culinary berries that are not botanical berries are blackberries, raspberries, gooseberries, blueberries, and boysenberries (some are false berries)"
or something that really makes clear that the strawberry is not a true berry nor even a false berry in the botanical sense. I would make the changes myself, but i'm not even sure if that is true. maybe the strawberry is a botanical false berry? maybe a modified berry really is a true berry?
what do you think?Lethe
- Again, your version may be a bit wordy, but generally better than what is there now. I would leave out the parenthetical "some are false berries" as that is covered well in the 2nd paragraph. - Marshman 17:10, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Cranberries
What about cranberries? Anyone know where they fit?
Presentation idea
What do people think about something like this table instead of the long lists within the article text?
| Botanical parlance | ||||
|---|---|---|---|---|
| True berry | False berry | Other | ||
| Common parlance | Berry | Grape | Currant, cranberry, blueberry, gooseberry | Strawberry, blackberry, raspberry, boysenberry |
| Other | Tomato, date, avocado, persimmon, eggplant, guava, chile pepper | Banana, cucumber, squash, pumpkin, melon, watermelon | Apple, peach, green bean, sunflower seed | |
BTW, I'm not sure if I stand by the idea that the grape is a berry in common parlance, but surely that box of all of them shouldn't be empty! Right?
Pekinensis 17:52, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Berries and drupes, single and multiple seeds
This article says that avocados are considered berries, but I was under the impression that the biological definition of a berry required that the fruit have multiple seeds, and that fruits like avocados, with one big seed in the middle, were considered drupes. Several sources I've found also seem to agree, including this online glossary. [1] (http://2bnthewild.com/gloss.htm) So what makes the avocado a berry even though it has one large pit in the middle like a drupe??? Blackcats 23:56, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I have some problems with the definitions at that website; berries typically do have multiple seeds, but that is not a requirement under the definition. However, an avacado cannot be a drupe because it has a single seed but not a "pit" (= a hard interior covering around the seed). I'm not so sure that it fits the definition of a berry real well either, but many fruits are hard to place in the various classification systems in use. - Marshman 23:17, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
