Talk:Beauty
From Academic Kids
Eventually, we'll have an article on beauty here. Apparently, flowers are beautiful.
I put the word stub in the article so that it will turn up during a search engine query on "stub". It doesn't hurt the (empty and worthless anyway) article, and it makes them easier to find later.
Ah, that makes sense. Well, "stub" is here now. ;-) -- Stephen Gilbert
You know, Stephen, this is the 7th change on this article so far, and we still haven't managed to put any actual content in. Sad, really. MB
Moved here from main article. Replaced with a stub.
A definition for someone to use as inspiration for an article
1. the quality present in a thing or person that gives intense pleasure or deep satisfaction to the mind, whether arising from sensory manifestations (as shape, color, sound, etc.), a meaningful design or pattern, or something else (as a personality in which high spiritual qualities are manifest). 2. a beautiful person, esp. a woman. 3. a beautiful thing, as a work of art or a building. 4. Often, beauties. something that is beautiful in nature or in some natural or artificial environment. 5. an individually pleasing or beautiful quality; grace; charm: a vivid blue area that is the one real beauty of the painting.
Also beauty and love, the philosophy of beauty... hmmmm... what else?
Possibly a useful link: http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/l/love.htm
Some research has pointed out that symmetry and golden ratio are major factors in the average person's perception of what beauty is. For example, persons with facial features that are symmetric and follow the golden ratio are more likely to be viewed as beautiful.
I think the part about the "millihelen" really belongs in the jokes file. Besides, Terry Pratchett might object. -- April
--- An alternative version built on the original ( for concideration)...
Beauty is a sensual perception of the real world concerning all sensorial organs and by all means absolutely subjective to the mentality of each culture, region, and era or even individual. However many attempts have been taken place for the understanding of the nature and meaning of beauty since it is one of the key themes in the philosophical discipline known as aesthetics.
The earliest theory of beauty can be found in the works of Greek philosophers from the pre-Socratic period, like Pythagoras. The extant writings attributed to Pythagoras reveal that the Pythagorean School, if not Pythagoras himself, saw a strong connection between mathematics and beauty. In particular, they noted that objects proportioned according to the golden ratio seemed more attractive. Some modern researches seem to confirm this, insofar as persons with facial features that are symmetric and proportioned according to the golden ratio are consistently ranked as more attractive than those whose faces are not. Moreover these same theories have confirmed that this symmetry of the facial structure is arousing the ?mating instincts? of women towards men. The organism is succeeding this by evoking the production of pertinent to mating female hormones, such as estrogens, when a female is in the presence of a ?beautiful? male.
Another connection between mathematics and beauty which played a prominent role in Pythagoras's philosophy was the way in which musical tones can be arranged in mathematical sequences, which repeat at regular intervals called octaves. This ?model? has been used everywhere throughout the past millennia and continues finding field of application nowadays and it will, most probably, carry on for unlimited time to come. It is what is known as Harmony and Melody, two terms derived from the regularity in which the universe is constructed, and being representing in the reproduction of the natural rhythm, with other words in music.
Beauty contests claim to be able to judge beauty. The ?millihelen? is sometimes jokingly defined as the scientific unit of human beauty. This derives from the legend of Helen of Troy as presented in Christopher Marlowe's Doctor Faustus, in which her beauty was said to have launched a thousand ships. The ?millihelen? is therefore the amount of beauty that could launch one ship!
Ouch! Some days ago I have been redirected here looking for a military decoration. The page has already been created, but I think some disambiguation is needed to separate beauty, personal decoration (not always related with beauty, especially in some cultures), interior decoration, civil decoration, military decoration, and others. Thanks.-- The Warlock 11:05 22 Jun 2003 (UTC)
"...people whose facial features are symmetric and proportioned according the golden ratio are consistently ranked as more attractive..."
I believe this needs clarification. I remember reading a long time ago about experiements that seemed to show that perfect symmetry in facial features was inferior to a slight asymmetry. --Jose Ramos 06:40, 1 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Venus is the Roman goddess of love, not beauty. Any idea which is the Roman god/goddess of beauty ? Jay 11:08, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)
| Contents |
Waist to hip ratio?
Reading One traditional, subtle feature that is considered an indication of beautiful women in all [!!!] cultures is a waist-to-hip ratio of about 75%. The waist-to-hip ratio (WHR) theory was discovered by psychologist Dr. Devendra Singh of the University of Texas at Austin. Physiologists have shown that this ratio accurately indicates most women's fertility. Traditionally, in premodern ages when food was more scarce, fat people were judged more attractive than slender. my eyebrowes jumped over my glasses. I live in China and know a bit about this "third of the world", that apparently this Dr. Singh never heard about. Women here certainly don't share the same "WHR"... Invisible waist and breast, white and "half-sick looking" skin has been and still is the Chinese beauty standard, with only few historical exceptions. And fertility doesn't seem to have ever been a problem here, as everybody knows... I'll move this pseudo-scientific "aesthetic" studies to a dedicated page, or simply remove.
I'm not found of relativism and I'm sure that beauty is also universal, but "beauty standards" are awfully cultural. gbog 03:26, 2004 Jun 22 (UTC)
- According to The Evolution of Human Sociality by Stephen K. Sanderson, studies have confirmed male preferences for women with low WHRs "in at least seven different cultures or ethnic populations," including the United States, England, Germany, India, Indonesia, Hong Kong, and Guinea-Bissau. He repeatedly mentions a WHR of 0.70. He gives many reasons for this. He says, "Girls with lower WHRs show earlier pubertal endocrine activity, and married women with higher WHRs have more difficulty getting pregnant and give birth to their first child at a later age." If anyone would like me to do so, I could post the relevant two pages. ShadowDragon 05:19, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- Please do post these links, so I can see the degree of accuracy of those studies. (But any statistical studies will not change facts, and the fact here is that Chinese women don't have the same "hourglass" shapes as Westerners, nor do they share the same beauty standards.) gbog 08:07, 2004 Jun 22 (UTC)
- This page (http://www.chss.iup.edu/sociology/Faculty/Sanderson%20Articles/Hum-Sexuality-paper-ASA2003.htm) contains much but not all of the info contained in the book. Do a search for Devendra Singh and you'll find the relevant info. ShadowDragon 06:28, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- Well, this article looks like a pamphlet against a very few "queer theorists", that's my first impression. I didn't see (I have to read it in detail) any solid argument in favour of our topic here-- which is : is this "Waist to hip ratio" something that should be mentioned in an encyclopedic article, and should it be mentioned this way, forgetting a third of the world (what is sadly not uncommon) ?
Hm. I do not live in China, but in a part of the world where that waist-hip-ratio thing clearly is considered a beauty standard. And results in eating disorders being a major problem among young women. However, I never have thought it something else than a matter of culture. You learn it by pictures, by tv, by barbie dolls, and even by soft drink bottles. There may be some "universal" shape of beautiful beneath, but if so you sure couldn't find out about it because of the dominating cultural influence.
Maybe we can keep something meaningful if we substitute
"One traditional, subtle feature that is considered an indication of beautiful women in all cultures..."
with
"One peculiar feature that is considered an indication of beautiful women at least in Hollywood-style movies and TV commercials..."
Besides, i think it a bit odd to link food scarcity only to "premodern ages", even for Austin, Texas, standards. --Stupid girl 11:27, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Agreed
gorgeous
Well done everyone that had a hand in this page
I expected it to be a real mess - but it is one of the most elegant wiki pages ive seen for ages. it takes a lot of effort to keep a definition so clear and simple without falling into the trap of only discussing the obvious. in this case i thought it would be all about women, or rather a particular adolescent american view of women - it isnt. Its quite beautiful.
Ok so now the criticism...
in this section
- Symmetry may be important because it is evidence that the person grew up in a healthy way, from without visible genetic defects. One traditional, subtle feature that is considered an indication of beautiful women in all cultures is a waist-to-hip ratio of about 70% (waist circumference that is 70% of the hips circumference). The waist-to-hip ratio (WHR) theory was discovered by psychologist Dr. Devendra Singh of the University of Texas at Austin. Physiologists have shown that this ratio accurately indicates most women's fertility. Traditionally, in premodern ages when food was more scarce, plump people were judged more attractive than thin ones.
I was about to alter this reference by removing the sentence about plumpness as it seems to have nothing to do with symmetry, then realised that the research on symmetry is itself an american perspective.
Well, in the Austin area at least - so to give the entry a cross cultural ballance i will add the "In the US it has been found that". and remove the slightly condescending "Traditionally, in premodern ages..." Plumpness isnt just for premodern ages, I have personal experience of plumpness being highly desirable, in preference to thin-ness. especially of the stomach, in both Egypt and India.
DavidP 22:21, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Joseph Beuys?
Why on earth has someone added a link to an interview with Joseph Beuys? I cannot recall any specific mention of beauty as an issue in the sculptors extensive works, it doesnt even really merit a link here under the basis of being a theory of aesthetics, which would be stretching the point anyway. It is well known that J.B. was very metaphorical in the language that he used for interviews, and most other documentation, but I think that an interview where neither the word 'Beauty' or the word 'shoenheit' is mentioned really is a usefull link here. I will remove it
DavidP 20:47, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Beauty and intelligence
I just added a reference to this study (http://harcourtassessment.com/hai/images/dotcom/sciencedirect/j.intell.2004.03.003.pdf). Personally, I consider the study logically flawed and methodologically suspect. It does, however, appear to have been peer reviewed and published. That makes it verifiable even if I don't like the content. I could not find a published rebuttal or critique. Rossami (talk) 23:20, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
NPOV
"(the reason for which is probably that most well-known mythologies were conceived of and standardised by heterosexual men)" ... was removed. It is opinion, speculation, however you want to parse it. What it is not is established fact or a well-attested theory.
