Talk:Battle of Monte Cassino

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There is interesting article (in Polish) here:

[1] (http://polityka.onet.pl/artykul.asp?DB=162&ITEM=1160862&MP=1)

There are two less known points: that in first attack Anders changed orders of his superiors and ordered frontal attack, and second: in 1983 in Germany there was TV show in which authors claimed that POlish soldiers after reaching the Monte Cassino peak murdered three wounded German paratroopers. Robert Frettloehr, one of those "murdered" paratroopers, after hearing about that immedietely contacted Polish combatant organisation to refute tha lie... Szopen 13:03, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

As to the frontal attack: have you been there? There is no way of a frontal attack carried out there, it's mountain landscape and whichever you go it's all around. Just read Wańkowicz. The guy, although not very strict when it comes to report all facts that are not interesting to an average reader, shows the local circumstances a lot better than PP Wieczorkiewicz... Halibutt 22:23, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

--- Are you sure it's 54 thousand fallen soldiers?? Sounds too much, it's only one hill... Littleendian 17:25, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

It is often said that war is hell, but, truth be told, Hell reported zero casualties during the last fiscal year. -- Itai 19:49, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

50.000 and something is the number of all casualties in the battle. Approximately 8.340 were actual KIA if that's what you refer to. Polish II Corps lost approx. 4000 men, among them 924 KIA and 345 MIA. However, the number of casualties given varies. At times the numbers given (for both sides of the front and the civilians, apparently) reach 25.000 (see: BBC article (http://www.bbc.co.uk/polish/indepth/story/2004/05/printable/040514_monte_cassino.shtml)). Halibutt 22:23, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

--- It is told in Brazil that our army had a participation in this battle... anyone has more information? LeandroGFCDutra 22:05, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

Well, I've heard of many nations taking part in the battle:

• Unitedstatesians
• Brits
• Frenchmen
• Algerians
• Moroccans
• Tunesians
• Hindu
• Gurkhas
• Kiwis
• Canadians
• Poles
• Maltans
• Cypriots

But I've never heard nor read of any Brasilians fighting there. AFAIK the Brazilian Expeditionary Force was stationed nearby, but did not take part in the battle itself. Halibutt 22:23, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

Contents

1 Brazil and Monte Cassino 2 May 18th, 1944 3 Belarusians at Monte Cassino 4 Too many nations listed 5 Moroccan troops 6 What the?

Brazil and Monte Cassino

Yes, we participated on Monte Cassino. Here: http://www.thesoutherncross.co.za/features/cassino.htm

May 18th, 1944

Space Cadet, I'm sorry to admit, but CVA is right here, the German paras mostly abandoned the ruins the night before the lanciers reached them. Of course, not all the German soldiers recieved the order and many of them were either wounded or not willing to leave, but the monastery was abandoned. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 02:32, Aug 29, 2004 (UTC)

Don't I feel like f.....g a..hole. Sorry CVA. Space Cadet 03:55, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Belarusians at Monte Cassino

2 Halibutt, who reverted my addition of the word "Belarusians":

1) http://www.svaboda.org/articlesprograms/diaspora/2004/5/0F3B6FB4-16EB-4FB0-976C-8F298B800A11.html - big interview with several Belarusian survivors of the Battle of Monte Cassino. One of them has become a history professor in the US, who has a dozen published works (Zaprudnik). According to his estimates, 10%-20% of battle participants were Belarusans and Ukrainians. The other guy giving the interview (Kastus Akula) emigrated to the US, and he is a known Belarusian poet. (Here is a bit more extended version of this interview - http://www.svaboda.org/programs/zamiezza/2004/05/20040525124009.asp )

2) http://www.svaboda.org/news/articles/2004/05/20040518182853.asp - another interview with a Belarusian survivor of the Battle. He claims that according to his research there were more than 2000 people from the Belarusan parts of the then "Western Belarus" (under Polish control), and of them more than 1000 people identified themselves as Belarusans (the others apparently being ethnic Polish from Belarus). And this guy who's been to Monte Cassino afterwards said he counted more than 200 graves there with ethnic Belarusans.

3) http://www.svaboda.org/news/articles/2004/05/20040520122717.asp - interview with a movie director Uladzimir Bokun who made a documentary about Belarusians in Monte Cassino called "Forgotten Heroes". This movie director: I made a thorough research, and I've found 259 graves of Belarusans there. And I made up my mind to make a documentary about them.

4) http://www.svaboda.org/news/articles/2004/05/20040512120729.asp - memoirs of a journalist from Belarus service of Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty who was a participant of the Battle.

5) http://www.svaboda.org/news/articles/2004/05/20040511170910.asp - the president of the Belarusan government-in-exile, Mikola Abramczyk, greets several hundred Belarusan participants during his lecture in London, UK, in 1947.

and finally

6) http://txt.knihi.com/memuary/salaui.html - a well-known novel-memoir written by a Belarusan officer who fought in Monte Cassino. Its full title: "Death and nightingales. The memoirs of the Belarusan officer from Monte Cassino".

Regards rydel 12:01, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I'd personally remove most of the nations listed there and simply put Allies. Under that article I'd then include the roles of various nations. Oberiko 12:45, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Alright, it's out of hand there. I'm reducing it to just Allies. My recommendation is to write a separate article Belarusians at the Battle of Monte Cassino and put that under the See also heading. Oberiko 15:33, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I was not saying that there were no Belarussians at Monte Cassino. In fact there might've been a lot of them, even on both sides of the front. However, there were no Belarussian units fighting there. In the Polish army alone there were Poles, Jews, Belarussians, Ukrainians, Maltans, Cypriots, Tatars, Cassubians, Silesians, even Germans. However, if we list nationalities rather than countries then we should also list all nationalities in the American army. American Italians listed separately from WASPs and from Irish. Also, the French units were composed of Frenchmen, Moroccan, Algerian and Tunisian troops, not to mention the Syrians.

I'd remove all the ethnicities and list countries only. However, it's up to you, I don't want to play with anyone's sense of national pride or conscience. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 08:39, Sep 18, 2004 (UTC)

This is all nonsense - when I created the taxobox, I listed exactly 5 groups - Americans, British, New Zealanders, Poles, Indians. Why those 5, you ask? Because those were the flags under which they were fighting. So we don't list Italians because there were Italian Americans fighting there -- they fought under the American flag, so the taxobox says American. Ditto for the Belarussians fighting under the polish flag. →Raul654 08:44, Sep 18, 2004 (UTC)

Out of curiosity, were the Free French forces under one of those five nations? Oberiko 10:33, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

AFAIR the Free French fought as a part of the 8th Army. The very term Free French is a tad ambiguous since those troops were mostly composed of Northern African nations rather than ethnic French. So, how about my proposal to list all the countries that fought there and create a nations involved (or similar) chapter, which would list all the nationalities fighting. Apparently there is need to include the ethnic nations here, so why won't we? [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 11:38, Sep 20, 2004 (UTC)

I don't really think so. If we did it here, we'd have to do it for every major battle that we have on the Wikipedia. Best to leave it to which flags each group was fighting under. I think a good compromise though would be to create an order of battle page for Monte Cassino. In that page, we could list all the groups that fought and under which banners. You could then create pages for the listed groups. Oberiko 12:46, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The OOB page could be created, but only after making the Battle of Monte Cassino a disambiguation page linking to all separate battles. Also, the problem with Belarusans and other minorities is that they didn't form any units of their own. I added some piece of information to the Polish II Corps that list all the nationalities that fought in its ranks, hope that clears the confusion a bit. Also, I disambiguated the list of nations and turned it into a list of states that took part in the battles. Hope that helps. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 13:49, Sep 20, 2004 (UTC)

Too many nations listed

Far too many nations are listed for the Allies. I'm changing it to "United States, United Kingdom, and allied forces". My basis for this is that they contributed the bulk of the forces and that the other forces were, almost entirely, contained with either American or British Armies. Oberiko 18:38, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I don't agree with you. Polish forces took heaviest fighting during the battle. Although it is disputable if it was necessery for so many Anders's soldiers to die the fact is that they did died, and because of that, it would be unfair to exclude Poland from the list of combatants.

My first question is why is there far too many nations listed? Isn’t this encyclopedia, and isn’t our task to give information – and you say that there is too many information! I say that this article is far too short for such an important event.

My second question is if the list is too long, why do you think that only US and UK deserve to be mentioned. Why not only US, or only Poland. If the list is too long (which I disagree), only fair solution would be to say that combatants were Allied forces and Germany.

Because of reasons mentioned above, I am returning the list of combatants to its previous state. -- Obradović Goran (ta^lk 19:14, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

P.S. When I compared two versions, i noticed that your version is taking 3 lines in the table, as well as the "longer" list. Because of that, there is no need to cut the list shorter. QED. -- Obradović Goran (ta^lk 19:18, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The previous description of "Moroccan troops in french fatigues" was wrong in two sences. First, the CEF wore a mix of mainly Americain uniforms; the French Army was hard-pressed to even find a few French-looking kepis and helmets for its officers. Secondly, the Armée de l'Afrique had been integrated into the Corps expéditionnaire française, along with Free French Forces that had been able to get through Spain to North Africa as well as French nationals recruited in Africa. Not to remove credit from the large and brave contingent of North African soldiers that fought through Italy and into Northwest europe, many of them finally dying in such places as Colmar on the german border.

Moroccan troops

The previous description of "Moroccan troops in French fatigues" was wrong in two sences. First, the CEF (consisting of over 4 divisions in italy) wore a mix of mainly Americain uniforms; the French Army was hard-pressed to even find a few French-looking kepis and helmets for its officers. Secondly, the Armée de l'Afrique had been integrated into the Corps expéditionnaire française, along with Free French Forces that had been able to get through Spain to North Africa as well as French nationals recruited in Africa. Not to remove credit from the large and brave contingent of North African soldiers that fought through Italy and into Northwest Europe, many of them finally dying in such places as Colmar on the Rhine.

What the?

Removed the following paragraph, which appears to be a complete non sequitur.

Alternately, it was a battle in a Buddhist Monk casino on Mount Kaisinau (Tibetan for "where the river of gold runs") in the invasion of Tibet by China. Buddhist monks stacked themselves against the doors, meditating and trying to keep a barrier, but a Chinese war buffalo regiment successfully broke through the side gates. Inside, the Chinese People's Liberation Army seized the capitalist pig-dog's ill gotten gains and spent it on waffle makers. This is the legend of why the PLA has the best waffles of any military worldwide. :D

Yet another loser's feeble attempt at humor, we see it all the time. Stan 05:36, 28 May 2005 (UTC)