Talk:Azerbaijanis
From Academic Kids
|
This is a controversial topic, which may be disputed. |
This looks like a duplicate of Azeris. Someone should investigate if it's a spelling issue, and in that case, which is better to use.
--Shallot 19:18, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Dear Admin. This is the last time I am visiting this page as I find it very biased. The majority of accepted history versions here are coming from Iranians towards a turkic republics). Azeris are not an iranic people neither are related. We are a turkic people. Shohreh aghdashloo or most the other Iranians being fabricated into Azerbaijani history by the government sponsored propaganda of the Iranian diaspora and iri. Search up most of these names like Shohreh aghdashloo and googoosh that have been labelled as azerbaijanis and you will see that they represent Iranians in American show business. They represent Iran not Azerbaijan. I don't care about the so-called self- proclaimed south Azerbaijan. Just lay your hands off our country and stop accusing Azeris when your own self- proclaimed Iranian "Azerbaijan"'s problems. There is only one Azerbaijan republic. Look in the un, one Azerbaijan. Iranians do not represent Azerbaijan. A poll in Azerbaijan indicated that 86% of the country wants an alliance with turkey. Iran got 2% vote, Russia 9% and none 3%. So lay off !! And stop trying to represent everything azeri as Iranian to the world. You should have seen the streets in baku during world cup soccer 2002 when turkey became 3rd, joy and parties everywhere. The streets were crowded and people screaming "turkiye-asazerbaycan". Tabi Yeter Issizler
Take it easy, man... Before second half of 20th century Iranians had no influence on ezternal view of the area. If you think that you right support your opinions properly.Yeti 22:19, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I'm an Azeri from Iran. Azeris speak a Turkic language but they are, just like the Persians, an Indo-Iranian ethnicity. Some Azeris resent Persian chauvinism, but for the overwhelming majoirity, the identification with Iran is exceptionally strong. The fact that many of Iran's rulers, from the Safavid dynasty to the Qajars, were Azeris, or the fact that the current "Supreme Leader" is also Azeri, I am sure does make the notion that Iran is somehow an "alien" land bizzare for us. There are twice as many Azeris in Iran than there are in Azerbaijan. Most of Iranian national heroes like Sattar Khan, Bagher Khan and even Dr. Mosadegh were Azeri. Azerbaijan is Iran. It's the birthplace of Zartosht (Zorastor). - Yalda
---Parishan 0:41, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I guess, I'm the only Azerbaijani/Azeri here, and I pretty much agree that the article has got completely messed up. Shallot, Shohreh Aghdashloo IS Azerbaijani, no matter what others say. It's obvious even from her name, which can be easily translated from Azeri: "agh" - white, "dash" - stone, "loo" - one of the typical endings for an Azeri lastname. Same with Googoosh. Her parents were originally from Baku and they emigrated to Iran in early 1950s, i.e. before she was actually born. Azerbaijanis of Iran are the majority of today's world's Azerbaijanis. You have no right to call them "self-proclaimed" or "false".
Other Turkic Peoples
Other Turkic peoples who have inhabited Azerbaijan besides those labeled as the Oghuz Turks (majority population in Azerbaijan in the 10th and 11th centuries) were the Scythians and Massagets (both reffered to as Ishkuz) Salars, Avars, Huns, Gok-Turks, Barsils, Saragurs, Kurtugurs, Khazars and the Ilkhanids. The ancient civilizations of the land such as that of Sumer, Elam, Urartu, Mannai, Media and Albania were inhabited by Ural-Altaic (proto-Turkic) peoples. It should be noted that under Mongol pressure in the 13th century, Turkic tribes under the Ilkhanid banner also settled in large numbers in Azerbaijan to escape Mongol persecution.
1. There are no proofs that Turkic peoples constituted a majority of polulation n 10th century.
2. There is commonly accepted that Scythians ans Massagetes were Iranian tribes. This is suppotred by available historical records, archeological findings, language analisis etc. Theories supported by some Turkic scientists about their Turkic origins are not supported by any serious proofs. The first documented Turkic settlemtnt of the sorrounding areas occured after 4th century.
3. Claim that Sumer, Elam, Urartu, Mannai, Media and Albania were inhabited by Ural-Altaic (proto-Turkic) peoples can not be supported by mainstream science.
To summarise: This is a nationalistic bias, which has nothing to do with history.
Azeri is the ethnicity, Azerbaijani is the nationality (aka citizenship) There is also a region in northern Iran that is called Azerbaijan.
I removed the following sentence : Most Azeris are businessmen (Vahid Alekperov, the head of "LukOil"), lawyers (Shirin Ebadi, the Noble Prize winner), musicians (Aziza Mustafa Zadeh), actors (Shohreh Aghdashloo, "The House of Sand and Fog", the Oscar nominee), and scientists (Lotfi Zadeh, Ali Javan). While i have no doubt that these people are important, I have stumbled over the begin of the sentence "Most Azeri are...". Are there no carpenters, shoemakers, plumbers or farmers among Azeris??? Please reformulate into something more sensible. Refdoc 21:10, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I do regret the removal of the "Garden of Eden" remark. It was one of the most endearing features of this article :-). No, seriously - how important is this as a e.g. national myth? Is there actually a concrete place e.g. pilgrimage destination for the Garden of Eden or something similar - If yes, however fanciful the connection might be I think it should be part of the article. If on the other hand this was simply a remark, based on a superficial/wishful reading of the Bible to say - "You thought we are small but we are really SOOOO big!", then yes let us forget it. Refdoc 10:36, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- I had never heard anything of the Garden of Eden thing, and I'm almost sure there is no national pilgrimage site or anything like that for it. It's ridiculous, and I think is really offensive to sane Azeris. A claim like that will ridicule the Azeris, which is not neutral.
- When I told that to two of my Azeri colleagues (born in Tabriz and Urumia), they were ashamed. They hadn't heard about it either (while one had heard about the Sumerian thing). If someone has written that "there are also claims that Moses is buried in South Azerbaijan", should have we kept it? roozbeh 14:08, Jul 29, 2004 (UTC)
Well there are all sorts of fanciful claims for all sorts of people's graves etc around. (not just Iran and Azerbaijan) most prophets have a several burial grounds, the Via Dolorosa has AFAIK little connection with the actual route of Jesus on his walk to Golgatha/Calvary and if you put together the available splinters of the true cross you will get a whole forest - hence I would not be too suprised to have someone claiming "Here is where the Garden of Eden was". But thanks for the info anyway. It seems to be better out than in... Refdoc 15:43, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Removal of POV notice
I propose to take down the dispute messages in 48 hrs if no objection regarding content comes up. When the note went onto the article, everything here looked very different... Refdoc 22:18, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Population Estimate
The new wording for the population says "it is estimated", instead of "it is claimed". What is the source for that estimate? I guess not many people will agree with the estimates. roozbeh 11:21, Aug 4, 2004 (UTC)
- Nope, probably not, as they are guesstimates. The source - myself. I added the widely varying numbers which were hanging around in the various Azarbaijan related articles here on Wikipedia and gave a sum for the lower end (and deducted a bit more) and a further one for the higher end and added a bit more. The numbers were/are widely diverging and this is quite annoying, therefore a better estimate would be highly appreciated. But 'claim' sounds like dishonesty, while estimate says just this - better numbers are needed. At the moment though I think this range is much better than a definite, but inaccurate number as our anonymous friend is banding about. Refdoc 13:18, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Too many reverts
I have been asked by two different contributors to take a look at the Azerbaijanis article, and other related articles. My initial glance shows too much reverting.
These excessive reverts are being done by "logged-in contributors" just as much as by "anonymous" ones. That's the problem, as I see it.
Find common base
The solution I'm going to propose is this:
- Find a common base in any disputed version; instead of reverting the whole thing, make sure you preserve at least one good part of it.
For example, if someone adds a good header (but also deletes or mangles a passage of text you cherish), DON'T revert the whole thing, but DO cut and paste that good header.
More advice to come, after I make a few edits to demonstrate what I mean. (Oh, and who am I to jump in and give all this advice? Well, I've been at Wikipedia longer than 99% of the current contributors, for one thing :-) --Uncle Ed 12:57, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Also, take a look at the new project page I created: Wikipedia:Restoring part of a reverted edit --Uncle Ed 15:19, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- I've been trying to do just that in the recent edits, and have come to your "use a good part" independently. The problem is that it may solve one side of the problem, but not the other. I agree that half is better than nothing, and I'm doing that. roozbeh 13:41, Aug 12, 2004 (UTC)
uniting previous Turkic inhabitants. The later group also believe that prior to that there were also traces of Caucasian peoples, such as the tribe of Chols as well as Indo-Europeans, who are often labeled as Iranic people. - can you support this thesis? Why do you claim that previous inhabitans were Turkic with only traces of Inouropeans and Caucassians. As far as I know this is highly controversial in the view of mainstream science.Yeti 10:47, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Have no clue..
Hi, when I came to the site I fond this message;
User talk:198.81.26.80 From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. You are editing the Azerbaijanis article without explaining your objectiong on its talk page. If you continue to do the removal of information and not explaining your actions or answering questions, you will be blocked. roozbeh 10:13, Aug 6, 2004 (UTC)
To be honest I have no idea how this can have be done by me, or my pc because I have been on a vacation for one and my pc has not been turned on, no one can access my house and second, if this article had not been brought under my attention just now, I would probably never have known of it's existance and I do not know anything on this subject and have the ethics to not ever add or change anything without expertise and research on a subject. I just came home from my vacation to find this message.
Hopefully this clears this up, I would really not know I got to get this message, or even if that is my ip address (to be honest) but apart from a wonder, I do not think it could have been done. My pc is passwords protected also btw.
Edited; checked and that is not my ip address.
with all respect, Ferre
Tabib's version and my reversal
While Tabib claims NPOVing the opposite has been achieved. I am all for getting the balance right, but the reverted-to version had teh advantage of being supporte dby sources, while Tabib's largely is not supported by sources. Also it introduces the term South-Azerbaijan as a fact while the term itself is expression of a POV. Further the classification of the Republic of Azerbaijan as part of the "historic Azerbaijan" annexed and divided is POV, anotehr is that the name has been Transferred" in order to support territorial claims. I am not saying any of this is right or wrong, but a wholesale cull of a version which tried to mention all disputes and all different angles and insertion of one which shows a single POV as the whole truth is a very poor move. Refdoc 23:16, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Maybe a bit belated but just wanted to note that Refdoc was talking about this edit [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Azerbaijanis&diff=10441359&oldid=10341452) (note, between my edit and Refdoc's reversal there were several other edits by other users too, see history log for details). I was not actively involved in this page so far, but I hope with help of other editors including Refdoc we can help this page to develop.--Tabib 15:59, May 21, 2005 (UTC)
Azeris are not Turks
I am Azeri man. Yet, I have my minor ethnicity group - Talysh. The latter involves people coming from the Southern area of Azerbaijan. These people have almost identical cultural values with Turkic people but the language is different. It is more like Persian. Also, people residing in the Northern area of Azerbaijan who call themselves Azeris, speak Taty and their ethnicity group is Tat. We can conclude that being Azeri does not mean the same as being Turkic except for the language... To illustrate the difference in societal and ethnical roots and convergence in language, I will use the UK example. People in UK, Scottish, Welsh and Irish, all speak English but they would be strongly offended by being called English themselves. In nowadays Azerbaijan, I can see many people who think of themselves as Turkic, but they are not in reality. These people have been raised with the only thought in their minds that they can not ever have their national identity. Seventy years of occupation by Russians and their communist regime made Azeri people speak fluent Russian and ignore their beloved Turkic language. If you got to down-town squares and central streets in Baku, a capital and the largest metropolitan area of Azerbaijan, there are people speaking Russian only, some for fashion dying on the vine... Now the fashion seems to be to speak Turkic which is slightly different from Azeri language. Coming to the soccer game parade following the third tournament position of Turkey's national team, we, people in Azerbaijan, used to cheer up Russians when they played world cups... So let people trying to convince the world that Azeri people are Turkic calm down, and stop confusing everybody. One must have no respect to his country's history or cultural heritage represented by the think-giants such as Fizuly, who was writing mainly in Arabic and Persian, or King (Shah) Ismayil assassinated by Turkic aristocrat, Sultan Salem during the private audience, to ignore the facts and call for the external links with Turks.
P.S. I am an Azeri man, but not Turkic at all.
im azari living in Tabriz but i dont consider myself turk.azaris living in iran have different cultures compared to azaris living in azerbaijan Republic we have more to share with another iranians than people in azerbaijan republic. its obvious if u travel to baku and tabriz you will realize the differences. for example azeris people from azerbaijan have problem with armenians but people here lives peacefully with armenians and there are around 1000 armenians living just in tabriz and i have many armenian friends too. few days ago when Iran national football team qualified to WC all the streets in tabriz were full of people chanting IRAN IRAN.
I am growing increasingly ashamed of the despicable fanatical conduct of some AZERBAIJANI compatriots!!!!
Would the Azerbaijani person, who is lecturing everybody on his blatant P O V , while calling any aposthates from his opinion "vandals" (sic), quit his shameful conduct!? He increasingly sheds (very) bad light on honest and sincere Azerbaijani folks, who are not guided by political kaders in Baku (or receive kickbacks for spreading propaganda).--Deli-Eshek 19:31, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
