Talk:Anarcho-syndicalism
From Academic Kids
| Contents |
Anarchist FAQ
I think the link to the anarcho-syndicalist FAQ is broken? Nelson 17:31, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)
--- I think the site is just down today.
--
OK, the link works today, so I guess there isn't a problem... although the site does seem somewhat incomplete. They should make it a wiki ;-) --Nelson 23:15, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)
---
It looks like that site is down for good now...
Anarcho-syndicalism - pronunciation
How do you pronounce this please? --Rebroad 19:01, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Um, I'm bad at typing out pronunciation, but let's try: ANNE(as in the name)-ark-o SIN-dick-uhl-ism. In Monty Python and the Holy Grail, the peasant says An-ARK-o, maybe that's one of those British things. --Tothebarricades.tk 02:51, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Comparison
I would like to see a comparison of this and Socialism. In America it seems the left can be criticized for being too much like socialism while the right can be criticized for being too much like Fascism. --Llbbl 17:41, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Umm... all Anarchisms are forms of Socialism. In America, the left can be criticized for not being left at all actually. The American left, for the most part, is far from Socialist.--Che y Marijuana 01:10, Jan 25, 2005 (UTC)
- Sorry, but that is just not true. Socialism and anarchism can also be seen as mutual exclusive terms. It is more of a common misconception that anarchism necessarily is connected to the left of the political spectrum. Anarcho-syndicalism is, but that doesn't mean that "all Anarchisms are forms of Socialism." are, e.g. Anarcho-capitalism --User: anonymous coward 01:18, March 07, 2005 (UTC)
- With the most basic definition of socialism, he is correct. All forms of anarchism advocate a system in which "...the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively..." (dictionary.com) or something that is a derivative of this idea. Even primitivism vaguely applies to this definition: the sticks and whatever that they plan on using to acquire food would not be privately owned. He is especially correct regarding classical anarchism and anarcho-syndicalism, which is the subject of this article. But anyway, I'm sure Llbbl was referring to centrally planned socialism to begin with... --Tothebarricades.tk 03:06, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- True, this article is about anarcho-syndicalism. And it is also true that I might be a bit anal about this :) But I still consider anarcho-capitalism or any other form of non-government rule a part of the anarchist movement. That is why I argue that one cannot put anarchism inside the left-right political spectrum, and thus it is wrong to say that all forms of anarchism comes from socialism or advocates a specific economical system. So without coming off as to patronizing, and at the same time knowing that I am failing in a second, I would like to say that differentiation is incredibly important while handling political terms... --User: anonymous coward 00:02, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Anarchism isn't "non-government", it's non-state. It is hard to see the distinction, but there is still one. For example, you can have anarchism in the form of a commune.
IWW - Call for Discussion
The IWW is a syndicalist labour union which advocated the abolition of the wages system and the establishment of an Industrial Commonwealth (the One Big Union) where all workers share equally in the products of labour. The organising structure of the IWW is inherently syndicalist. The opening line of the IWW constitution is "The Working Class and the Employing Class have nothing in common".
This article Anarcho-Syndicalism projected this ideology until 6 Dec 2004, when an unrgistered user revised the document to imply that the IWW was not syndicalist (and thus casting doubt upon the appropriateness of the IWW being featured in the article).
I'd like to open discussion on this topic - is the IWW syndicalist, should it be in the article, if yes, in what ways? An An 22:46, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Certainly the IWW should be included in some way, as it's the closest thing the U.S. ever had to a syndicalist labor union. However, I'm fairly certain the IWW-writ-large has never officially espoused anarcho-syndicalism, or even fully articulated a vision which we could fairly characterize as such. It was founded by a number of radical labor leaders who were committed to industrial unionism, a group which then included some of the country's most prominent Socialists. A number of those left when the union came to be dominated by anarchists, but so far as I know the socialist influence never disappeared completely, and today there are certainly socialist and other non-anarcho-syndicalist Wobblies. RadicalSubversiv E 23:17, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
One of the features of the IWW is that your poltical persuasiions are not a barrier to entry. As long as you work for the abolition of the wage system (and thus the state), you're OK. There is no totalising political line to be adhered to. This surely is a feature of anarcho-syndicalism.An An 03:15, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Eugene Debs, Daniel DeLeon, and Big Bill Haywood, each of whom were instrumental in founding the IWW, advocated abolishing the wage system precisely by seizing control of the state (either through revolution or the ballot box). They weren't anarcho-syndicalists (read Debs writings on the subject -- he left the Wobblies because he was upset with the anarchists and their fascination with dynamite), and neither are a number of Wobblies today. RadicalSubversiv E 03:43, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It doesn't matter what one guy (founder or not) thinks about the IWW. It matters what the members think, the way they use the structure of the organisation as a tool, and the way they behave within the organisation in a poltical context. My understanding of the historical and current practices and ideology of the IWW, seizing control of the means of prodcution (not the state) is the aim. Seizing control of the state cannot be a revolutionary aim, and it cannot be an aim of the IWW because it is inconsistent with the aim of abolishing the wage system. As for the ballot box, have you ever heard "Bump Me Into Parliament" and Australian wobbly song which denies the utility of the fundamentally repressive nature of ballot box democracy? An An 07:11, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- I've already acknowledged that the union has often been dominated (as it is today) by anarchists, and that much of its activities and rhetoric were significantly similar to syndicalism. The article should say that. However, it should also make clear that wasn't true at the union's founding, and that at no point has syndicalism been an explicit collective aim of the organization. Whether you personally feel that it was syndicalist in some broader functional sense isn't really relevant. RadicalSubversiv E 12:10, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Despite what you and the ghost of Big Bill Haywood personally feel is relevant, the IWW is a syndicalist revolutionary union. You seem to be confusing the terms "anarcho-" and "syndicalist". The IWW is the latter, whether or not its members are the former. An An 23:56, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- If they're just syndicalists, as you say, they're still radical, revolutionary, anti-government syndicalists operating according to anarchist principles, which essentially makes them anarcho-syndicalists despite having never issuing a manifesto claiming such (the IWW was/is always more action-based than theory based). Any differences the IWW has with say, Spanish anarcho-syndicalism (upon which the IWW had an influence; many early supporters of national industrial unionism cited the IWW as an inspiration) should be noted, of course, but I think the similarities are more striking. As far as there being statists and other non-anarchists in the IWW, the same could be said of the CNT, though they were a minority and their ideas (or apathy as far as theory goes) was not generally reflected in the structure, goals, or functioning of the organization. I think the same applies to the IWW. Also , the population of the IWW, as has been noted, is mostly anarcho-syndicalist, which is even truer in recent years (check out the red and black motif on their website) --Tothebarricades.tk 01:10, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- While I'm not familiar with the details of CNT's history, I think the issue here goes beyond a minority of theory-agnostics. The IWW was as much a child of the then-strong socialist movement as it was of the anarchists (who never had the numbers or political strength in the U.S. that the old Socialist Party did). Debs, Haywood, DeLeon, and Jones would all be rolling over in their graves at the notion that they founded a syndicalist union. RadicalSubversiv E 05:58, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I think it reads well now. It incorporates the history and original intentions of the founders (not necessarily anarchists) but also the present mindset of members of the organisation (use of anarchist techniques) without totalising them as "all anarchists". An An 04:17, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
While I appreciate Tothebarricades.tk's efforts, the text was still significantly inaccurate; I have endeavored to improve it. As it happens, I'm not convinced this alleged distinction between "syndicalism" and "anarcho-syndicalism" exists anywhere except Wikipedia. The major syndicalist theorists explicitly embraced anarchism, so I think this is more a matter of preference in terminology than anything else. RadicalSubversiv E 05:54, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I am largely happy with this revision. Radicalsubversiv, can you name the European unions which you compare the IWW to? Is it the CNT? I have removed your comparison word "more" because there is nothing to compare to and this is POV. The datum is idealised.
- Re: distinction between anarcho and syndicalist. Anarcho means without rule or government, from the Greek. Syndicalist means 'with justice' from the Greek, but I believe that in English it has come to mean a style of collective organising (e.g "to Syndicate"), politically independant of anarchism or capitalism etc. The IWW are definately sydnicalist, their methods and poltics are mostly anarchist.
- re: text largely inaccurate. I really can't see what you altered to make it 'more accurate'. It looks like you paraphrased a bit, and re-emphasised socialists in the history (which is fine, but this is the anarcho-syndicalist page). Maybe you could ask for clarification or history, or rationale? An An 21:43, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You continue to make changes to the article to uncategorically label the IWW as syndicalist. I have explained several times above why I believe this is inaccurate. In fact, our own article (Industrial Workers of the World) states that the union is syndicalist per se in the opening paragraph. If you are going to persist in making these changes, please supply citations, preferably scholarly, on the subject. As soon as I find the time to spend an hour or two in the library, I will look up some myself, and will happily back down and apologize if I find historians labelling the IWW as anarcho-syndicalist without qualification.
Moreover, please spare me the condescending etymology lessons. The issue is not the linguistic origin of these terms, it is their currant definition and usage, and I know of no source outside of Wikipedia that draws some fundamental distinction between anarcho-syndicalism and syndicalism. But again, I will do more research and see what I find.
RadicalSubversiv E 06:03, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Radicalsubversiv, This section is about the IWW through history, and today (not one or the other). I am trying to respond to the points you have raised (i.e. the etymology of the terms, and their common useage). I don't want to condescend any more than I have been condescended to. You've consistently removed the sydnicalist lable from the IWW, whilst admitting that it is syndicalist in some ways, and should definately be included in the anarcho-syndicalist article. You've garbled every modification I've made with parentheical qualifications because you seem to want the IWW to be socialist, or at least not quite anarchist. I don't see the point of putting the IWW in the anarcho-syndicalist page only to say that it isn't really anarcho-sydnicalist.
- As for adding a dispute tag, this is extreme. This labels the entire article as disputed, which is incorrect. Only one section is desputed, and this more on an interpretive basis than a strict factual basis. The section currently seems to relfect your described wishes (as above). You haven't yet responded to my request to know which statements make the section "largely inaccurate", or to know which european unions you refer to.
- You agree that the IWW is anarcho-syndicalist in some ways (and so does the IWW article). In fact the IWW article states that the IWW is the leading light of anarcho-syndicalism in the USA.
- How can the IWW be syndicalist per se (i.e. intrinsically), but be unable to be described as such?
- Can you demonstrate how the current text is "largely inaccurate"?
- Can you name the european unions that the IWW is like? Did you mean the CNT?
- There is a distinction between anarcho-syndicalism and anarchism and syndicalism (hence the 3 terms). Whichever terms are used popularly is a matter of fashion. They still represent distinct concepts. If the terms are so similar, then you can't sustain an argument that the IWW is syndicalist, but not anarcho-sydnicalist.
- The IWW is currently in operation. It is defined in the present, not only in the past.
- By saying you are going to the library, do you mean to ask me not to change the article until you have done this? Fine, I will refrain.
- You've upset me, but I don't want to escalate this further. Are you at all happy with the current text?
An An 08:58, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Accuracy?
Who's quesrtioning the accuracy of this article?-- Revolutionary Left (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com) | Che y Marijuana 16:47, May 4, 2005 (UTC)
- Just a guess that it might be MichaelWarron. Though perhaps he might do us the courtesy of explaing his objections on talk. An An 01:58, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
He has vandalised my userpage and the talkpage for Anarchism .. -max rspct 17:12, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Flag
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the black and red flag the colors of anarcho-communism? Kent
- They use it as well, as do anarchists who don't specifically claim to be anarcho-syndicalists or anarcho-communists as such. --Tothebarricades.tk 21:57, May 15, 2005 (UTC)
announcing a policy proposal of general interest
This is just to inform people that I want Wikipedia to accept a general policy that BC and AD represent a Christian Point of View and should be used only when they are appropriate, that is, in the context of expressing or providing an account of a Christian point of view. In other contexts, I argue that they violate our NPOV policy and we should use BCE and CE instead. See Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/BCE-CE Debate for the detailed proposal. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:55, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
- Apparently this debate has been going on for years and the argument for BCE/CE isn't being accepted. I don't think it matters either way. The superficial neutrality you gain (superficial because we're still basing our calender on the birth of Jesus) isn't worth the confusion it would cause in a lot of people not familiar with the BCE/CE system. I don't support a universal policy on the matter because it's really not worth the controversy... -- Tothebarricades.tk
