Academic Kids talk:Requests for arbitration/Lyndon LaRouche

Contents

1 witness 2 necessary? 3 from User talk:Fred Bauder 4 from User talk:Fred Bauder 5 Good questions 6 From User talk:Maveric149 7 aftermath

witness

I request to serve as a witness for this case. I too have been victimized by Carr, in a similar fashion; in fact, the reason Herschel is treated this wasy, is undoubtedly because Carr got away with doing the same towards me. Lirath Q. Pynnor

Anybody can add evidence to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Lyndon LaRouche/Evidence - you don't need special permission to do so. --Camembert

necessary?

Is this really necessary? I've been watching this dispute all along, and IMHO, a large proportion of the issues with this article could still be talked over, In all fairness, I don't know whether the ArbCom is particularly suitable for resolving such a dispute such as this. Ambivalenthysteria 16:39, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Well, it's been accepted now... we'll see what happens. --Camembert

Why on earth is this being arbitrated? Also, why didn't anybody notify me on my talk page about this? john k 20:29, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I could ask the same question. I'm sure Krusty will be comforted to know he has the support of Lirath, a notorious pest who has come close to banning several times. Adam 16:56, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC) Correction: who has in fact been banned, for abusive behaviour and the use of multiple identities. Adam 17:43, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

As Herschel was unable to get any satisfaction from mediation (it was rejected by Adam and Andy), and seemed unlikely to get any progress by (eg) talking to Adam (based on Adam's responses in Talk), it seemed that I had to vote to accept the case, lest Krusty be left with no legitimate means of protest.

The lack of notification was an oversight, I'm sure - I'm glad you both found it only a couple of days later anyway. Martin 17:52, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

from User talk:Fred Bauder

Fred, when might there be some movement on Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Lyndon_LaRouche? Hershelkrustofsky is now saying on Wikipedia:Requests for page protection that protection of Frankfurt School should remain indefinitely until there is a decision from the arbitration committee despite the fact that he has refuses to engage in a serious discussion of his version in Talk:Frankfurt School. My talk page says I am away but I am checking in to participate in matters such as the arbitration so don't let my vacation notice deter you from proceeding with the arbitration. AndyL 05:04, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Fred, I'd like to make two observations regarding your comments at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Lyndon LaRouche/Proposed decision: it is, of course, relevant that I am a LaRouche activist, but no more so than Adam Carr being a professed Gay activist, or Andy being whatever it is that he is. If I were to go on a rampage of reverting Adam's articles on the grounds that he is Gay, I would be justly accused of being homophobic. Adam and Andy have deleted or reverted material that I have written that has no relation to LaRouche, a case in point being Counterculture.

That's because everything you write is driven by your LaRouchist ideology. The analogy between you being a LaRouchist and me being a gay activist is a spurious one. LaRouchism is a cult whose adherents are no longer capable of objective thought or writing on any subject, which should alone be grounds for disqualifying them from writing encyclopaedia articles. It might conceivably be argued that my role as a gay activist disqualifies me from writing an article on, for example, Fred Phelps, although I would dispute even that. But gay activism is not a cult organisation like LaRouchism, nor does it have a universalist political ideology that dictates what I think about other subjects. In any case, I do not remove Krusty's material from articles merely because he is a LaRouchist. I remove it because it is arrant nonsense. See counterculture and Anti-Defamation League for two obvious examples. Adam 05:24, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Secondly, regarding the issue of the "fantasy biography": I have been a supporter of the LaRouche movement for going on 30 years, so I think I would be justified in considering my opinion on this subject "expert." Adam admits that his sole source of biographical information is Dennis King; in fact, Adam has gone so far as to dispute the accuracy of quotes from LaRouche, on the question of LaRouche's own opinions, when they conflict with characterizations by King.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Lyndon_LaRouche&curid=229257&action=history) If LaRouche can be accused of misrepresenting his own views in public statements (a rather Orwellian construct), then King, whose animus is obvious and whose credentials are neglible, has at least an equal basis for being disregarded as a source. I think that it is in the interests of Wikipedia to not provide a forum for slander (see Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not. --Herschelkrustofsky 00:47, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Krusty says I have been a supporter of the LaRouche movement for going on 30 years, so I think I would be justified in considering my opinion on this subject "expert." This is of course the exact opposite of the truth. It is like saying that Rudolph Hess was well qualified to write a biography of Hitler. Because LaRouchism is a cult, its adherents are incapable of objective thought on any subject, let alone the subject of the cult leader's own biography. The question of sources for the Lyndon LaRouche article has been discussed several times in the relevant place. I am working on obtaining better sources. But that is quite a separate issue from that of Krusty's role at Wikipedia. Adam 05:24, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

"Because LaRouchism is a cult, its adherents are incapable of objective thought on any subject..." goes way far. I'm still researching this, but however unusual Larouche may be certain things did happen and certain things did not. While we may tolerate some reference to claims that events which are unverifiable happened, after all the claim itself is verifiable, encyclopedic content must mainly consist of verifiable events. Fred Bauder 14:10, Jul 20, 2004 (UTC)

"Because LaRouchism is a cult, its adherents are incapable of objective thought on any subject..." is classic sophistry: Adam believes that if he is sufficiently vociferous in demanding that this formulation be accepted as the axiomatic basis for discussion, he can get away with pretty much anything that follows. In fact, the origin of the slander that LaRouche is a "cult leader" is easily identified, as is the motive for the slander: see Significant Omissions from the current version. --Herschelkrustofsky 14:25, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I doubt Fred wants this discussion to continue on his Talk page. I hope Fred and co are close to giving us their opinions on this so we have something concrete to debate. Adam 04:45, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

---

Fred, I have a question about the findings you have posted at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Lyndon LaRouche/Proposed decision. The article Lyndon LaRouche, in its various incarnations since rewritten from scratch by Adam Carr, is chock full of innuendo, undocumented (and unattributed) accusations, and large dollops of clumsily obvious, heavy-handed propaganda (see updated list of wild fabrications and propagandistic slurs in the present version). It seems to me that even a person unfamiliar with LaRouche should be able to discern this, after reading this article. My question is the following: in what way does Adams's version of this article not violate the following:

Point #6 from Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not: Propaganda or advocacy of any kind. But of course an article can report objectively on what advocates say, as long as an attempt is made to approach a neutral point of view." --Herschelkrustofsky 20:45, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Point taken. Fred Bauder 11:33, Jul 28, 2004 (UTC)

from User talk:Fred Bauder

You guys write:

3) User:Adam Carr has engaged in a personal attack on User Herschelkrustofsky, "Because LaRouchism is a cult, its adherents are incapable of objective thought on any subject, let alone the subject of the cult leader's own biography."

Surely this is an error. The statement you quote doesn't even mention Krusty, let alone attack him. My personal attack on Krusty was to call him (from memory) a lying, slanderous piece of filth. If you want to convict me for making personal attacks, please do so over something which actually is a personal attack. I also point out that my personal attack on Krusty followed his description of a Jewish social-democratic member of the Australian Parliament as a fascist. I consider that to be far more offensive than anything I have said about Krusty. Adam 08:25, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

No error. But I hadn't found the other attack. Nor had I found the attack he made. Please supply links to both attacks. As to the quoted attack above although it does not mention User Herschelkrustofsky as a LaRouche supporter he would be included. By the way, use of the term "Krusty" is probably also not good, unless he uses it himself. Fred Bauder 11:29, Jul 28, 2004 (UTC)

Several points in response to that:

• to characterise a political comment about the LaRouche cult which names no individual as a "personal attack" is to introduce an unworkably broad definition of a personal attack.
• the LaRouche debate has taken place on many pages over more than a month. I have no idea where the two comments refered to above are located. I have quoted both of them to the best of my recollection. If you don't believe me you will have to search the files yourself.
• Krusty chooses not to edit here under his real name, so he can't complain if I call him by a convenient version of his pseudonym - and as far as I know he hasn't complained. If I knew his real name I would use it.
• In any case, Krusty did not ask you to arbitrate on the things he and I have had to say about each other in the course of this controversy. His complaint concerned my actions in rewriting the Lyndon LaRouche article. I suggest, with respect, that you would find your task easier if you confined yourselves to the matters you were asked to arbitrate.

Adam 12:46, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Because I happened to see this and was curious, I point you to Talk:Lyndon_LaRouche/archive4. Five or six paragraphs down. Danby is one of the most outspoken fascists on the Australian political scene. Ambivalenthysteria 12:57, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I have looked at this now. It does constitute a personal attack in my opinion as it implies some vague connection between Adam Carr and an allegedly "fascist" member of the Australian Parliament. But this draws on the same broad interpretation of personal attack Adam Carr complains of. If you chose to make a personal attack on the talk page of an arbitrator while a matter is under consideration you should expect it to become an issue in the arbitration. Your explanations regarding the use of "Krusty" seem specious. If he wanted to be called Krusty he would have chosen that user name. Fred Bauder 14:36, Jul 28, 2004 (UTC)

Two points in response: in fact, I did ask the arbitrators to address the issue of Adam's personal attacks, which are not limited to my person. See Adam's role. I made no reference there to the use of the name "Krusty", which I find annoying, but trivial in comparison with the offences that I specify.

And, my characterization of Michael Danby was not ad hominem; I provided what I consider to be ample evidence for the charge: "He is an ardent supporter of the Anti-Terrorism Act 2004, which legalizes--under Australian law--the institutions and procedures as specified in an Executive Order by President Bush, which set up the torture regimes at Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib. The act cites the relevant Executive Order by Bush by name, and also cites by name the lawless military detention system at Guantanamo Bay, to which that order gave rise. Danby officially spoke in Parliament for the (nominally) opposition Labor Party on behalf of this bill, which was put forward by the neo-con government of Liberal Party Prime Minister John Howard." I did not "imply a vague connection" between this individual and Adam -- the connection is quite specific: he is Adam's employer, and was vigorously slandering LaRouche before Adam acquired the habit, leading me to believe that he may possibly be, to some extent, Adam's mentor. --Herschelkrustofsky 14:49, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It is not established, at this time, that the policies of the United States can fairly be described as "fascist". Fred Bauder 17:46, Jul 28, 2004 (UTC)

I don't think that there are many folks out there who regard the policies of a faction of the Bush administration as characteristic of the United States -- I hope not. Otherwise, while what you say may be techically correct, I think it is only a matter of time before it becomes "established" -- even the Reynquist court seems to have some qualms about what has transpired at Guantanamo. --Herschelkrustofsky 14:35, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

• I did not say that I saw Herschelkrustofsky's description of Michael Danby as a fascist was a personal attack on me, or indeed a personal attack on Danby. It is a political comment, not a personal one. What I did say was that it was more offensive than anything I have called Herschelkrustofsky. I repeat that to call a Jewish social-democrat whose grandparents died in fascist concentration camps a fascist is grossly offensive (not to mention defamatory, which is of course why Herschelkrustofsky lacks the courage to edit under his real name). I mentioned this not to "complain" about it but to make clear the context in which I called Herschelkrustofsky a slanderous piece of filth, a comment I made after due consideration and which I stand by.
• I have re-read Herschelkrustofsky's original complaint and it makes no reference to comments made by me about him, only to the issue of the LaRouche article. He evidently made a supplmentary complaint after the exchange referred to above. But I repeat that I don't think who has called who what is a matter with which you ought to be concerning yourselves. Herschelkrustofsky and I are both adults, and Herschelkrustofsky has been on his own account a LaRouche activist for 30 years. He is thus no stranger to political and personal abuse, both giving and receiving, and nor am I. I suggest that you ignore side-issues and address the matters of substance relating to the LaRouche article.

Adam 00:26, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I'd like to remind Adam that crimes committed against Michael Danby's grandparents cannot excuse Danby's behavior half a century later -- and there is certainly more substance to my charges against Danby, than to Adam's charges against LaRouche. --Herschelkrustofsky 14:35, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Fred wrote "By the way, use of the term "Krusty" is probably also not good, unless he uses it himself."

Just in case Fred is not up on the issue, I'll point out that in the tv show The Simpsons, Herschel Krustofsky is the real name of Krusty the Clown. Given the reference Herschelkrustofsky implies with his selection of nickname I don't see how calling him Krusty for short should be seen as insulting. If anything it's just playing along with the joke Herschelkrustofsky is making with the choice of his name. AndyL 03:05, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

As in the show where Bart and Lisa help Krusty be happilly reunited with his father, if I recall? :) Martin 17:48, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

And the fact that Krustofsky is Jewish makes this choice of nickname by a 30-year disciple of a notorious Jew-baiter a rather unfunny joke. Adam 03:43, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Good questions

Could somebody explain to me:

• What the finding about "original research" means and what it has got to do with the matter under dispute?
• In what sense my observation that the LaRouche movement is a cult can be a "personal attack" when it names no persons?
• Why the arbitrators have not arbitrated what they were asked to arbitrate, namely the propriety of my rewriting the Lyndon LaRouche article, but instead have issued dicta on various other subjects which they were not asked to arbitrate?

Adam 06:38, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

We don't try to arbitrate the content of articles, for example by doing a lot of research regarding Lyndon LaRouche and trying to figure out what's true and what's not, or even whether this source or that source said what about him. With regard to original material and your replacement article you were complaining that a great deal of the material in the original article was not credible, having its source only within the Lyndon LaRouche movement, the "fantasy biography". This does seem to be true. This sort of material is what is contemplated within Wikipedia as original research. That is material not based on authoritative references but based on personal creativity, in this case that of Lyndon LaRouche and his supporters. This also is a sort of self dealing and subject to the same sort of objections that are made when someone tries to write a Wikipedia article about themselves. Although we did not mention the propriety of rewriting the article we implicity "said" there was no problem with that but did not approve its content. Otherwise we would have addressed it explicitly. Fred Bauder 12:03, Aug 2, 2004 (UTC)

Regarding your problem with understanding why what you said was a personal attack, it is astounding that you don't get it. If an entire class is called idiots because they are adherants of a cult and if someone is clearly within the class then you are saying that that person is an idiot. Fred Bauder 12:03, Aug 2, 2004 (UTC)

As to our decision being dicta (thus non-binding), don't count on it. Fred Bauder 12:03, Aug 2, 2004 (UTC)

What I believe that Fred is trying to say is that our "power", such as it is, to issue... guidance to sysops and other editors in general on how to act, ranging from coercing others to ban a particular down to asking people to be generally nice and cordial to each other, stems from Jimbo's God-King powers over the entire project (however much he disclaims their existence ;-)); we are certainly not a self-imposing authority, though of course we're somewhat ineffectual without actions being taken as a result of our urging.

And dicta can very much be binding, depending on the forces implementing said imposed "orders".

James F. (talk) 14:07, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I have added a proposed "principle" regarding rewriting of articles, to indicate that it is in principle allowed, based on my understanding of things. As Fred said, I think this is implicit anyway, but I have no problems making it explicit. Martin 19:34, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

From User talk:Maveric149

I will treat this "arbitration" with the contempt it deserves until I see something being done about Herschelkrustofsky and his attempt to turn this project into a vehicle for LaRouche propaganda. The remarks I directed at him were entirely justified and I will repeat them as and when it seems to me to be appropriate to do so. Adam 07:00, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Read the rest of the ruling. As for continuing to issue personal attacks, you do that at the risk of possible additional sanction. --mav

Kindly do not patronise me, of course I have read the ruling. It says nothing about the Lyndon LaRouche article, which is what you were actually asked to arbitrate. It does nothing to stop Herschelkrustofsky corrupting this project with his LaRouche garbage and slandering other people with his filthy insinuations. Instead you have allowed yourselves to be diverted by his various red herrings. I have no problems with taking a day off from Wikipedia (I should probably take a month off), but I reject your rulings as confused, ineffective and morally worthless. Adam 09:15, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

What follows is my opinion.

It was Herschelkrustofsky's arbitration request, so calling his complaints "red herrings" seems bizzare. It seemed sensible to investigate his complaints, having accepted his request for arbitration, just as we investigated the counter-complaints made against him.

In my opinion, nothing much needed to be said about the Lyndon LaRouche article. Since you rejected mediation, and argued against arbitration, I can only assume that you, like me, feel that outside interference in the content of that article would not be productive. You will be glad then, that we have not interfered.

We haven't done much for the promotion and original research problem on other articles, but neither have we done nothing. Protection bias will help a little, a ban threat likewise. But the Daniel C. Boyer case shows us that the community is entirely capable of dealing with promotion incidents without arbitration rulings, so better not to come down heavy-handed and possibly obstruct that process. "Edit this page" is a powerful tool.

We may yet rule on Herschel's "filthy insinuations" - it depends how the voting goes. Our failure to do so would not prevent you or anyone else from simply removing them. Again, "Edit this page" is a powerful tool.

I hope you will vote in the forthcoming arbitrator elections in favour of someone who you feel is less confused, more effective, and morally worthy. I also hope that after your day's holiday from Wikipedia, you will refrain in the future from making personal attacks. Martin 17:44, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

aftermath

(from Fred's Talk)

I believe the anon 172.197.41.61, 172.192.55.164, 172.199.94.76, 172.195.49.141, 172.192.69.34 who has recently been inserting and reinserting LaRouche propaganda in the LaRouche article is Herschelkrustofsky. See [2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Lyndon_LaRouche&action=history) AndyL 14:15, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The part of the proposed decision which would affect this is:

2) User Herschelkrustofsky is prohibited from editing the article Lyndon LaRouche and closely related articles as well as their talk pages.

   Arbitrator votes for proposed remedy 2:

      1. Fred Bauder 12:44, Jul 21, 2004 (UTC)
      2. mav 05:43, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

   Arbitrator votes against proposed remedy 2:

      1. Martin 21:53, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC) (not convinced this is necessary or particularly helpful, given the Boyer comparison - were Hershel to become abusive or very reverty, for example, this would change)
      2. Gutza 14:39, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)

   Arbitrator abstains regarding proposed remedy 2:

      1. James F. (talk) 00:21, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC) (Not sure about this one...)

So you see, he is doing nothing which violates our decision as we split on this matter. Fred Bauder 15:17, Aug 6, 2004 (UTC)

I attempted to block the anon users with a tempban but it seems I misread the Arbcom decision re what sort of edits to the article are allowed (adding Lyndon LaRouche "propaganda" to articles unrelated to him is not permitted, by my understanding, but this does not restrict such edits to the Lyndon LaRouche article itself):

I've unblocked your blocks of several anonymous users, because the decision doesn't authorize the use of blocks and bans. However, you can present this as evidence to the Arbitration Committee, and they may decide to ban the user. Guanaco 16:15, Aug 6, 2004 (UTC)

In any case, even if we were to effectively bar the anon IP being used (by Herschelkrustofsky?) given the IP numbers we would have to bar quite a large range and that might not be justifiable.

Anyway, just reporting the IP activity to you FYI in case it's evidence. AndyL 17:33, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

They've also been instructed not to engage in promotion, which does apply to Lyndon LaRouche. As enforcement, you have the old standby of "edit this page", and also (as a special exemption) the ability to choose which version to protect. I expect that will be sufficient, and as you not blocking a huge IP range would seem a little OTT. Martin 19:21, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Yes, there seems no effective way to block Herschel when he edits without logging in due to the nature of his ISP. One thing I'm unclear about, do sysops who edit Lyndon LaRouche have dispensation to protect the page themselves when necessary or must we still request that the action be taken by an uninvolved sysop? AndyL 17:56, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Ooh, good question! Not one I'd explicitly thought about either way. I think it would be sensible to ask an uninvolved sysop, but I can see how our ruling could be interpreted the way you suggest, and I have no serious objection to that. It would be nice to hear what other arbitrators think. Martin 19:32, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)