Academic Kids talk:Banning policy

Contents

1 closest to a mistake 2 Automatic punishment for ban evasion 3 Human proxies? 4 Baiting block proposed 5 Returning banned users 6 Clean slate 7 case law 8 Human Proxying part 2 9 Getting unbanned 10 Standing orders

closest to a mistake

"The closest Wikipedia has got to making a mistake on this issue, and blocking someone who wasn't in fact banned, was when one banned user tried to impersonate another banned user."

If it was a banned user impersonating someone, who does the "blocking someone who wasn't in fact banned" refer to? Shouldn't it be a non-banned user doing the impersonating? Angela. 23:44, May 10, 2004 (UTC)

That's the closest we've got to it. We've never actually done it. I guess this needs to be clearer. Martin 17:50, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

Automatic punishment for ban evasion

There are roughly three schools of thought:

A) A ban of one month lasts one month, regardless of attempts at evasion. B) A ban of one month requires one month of uninterrupted absence from Wikipedia - any attempt to evade that ban automatically resets the ban timer. Banned users with poor self-control may end up banning themselves indefinately. C) Evading a ban is itself a bannable offence - doing so automatically triples the ban length (after which, (B) applies).

(B) has precedent in that it's how we dealt with Cantus when he evaded a quickpoll ban. I'm unaware of any other precedents on the matter, so I intend to write this into wikipedia:banning policy, (I mentioned this on wikien-l). Those who favour a different approach are welcome to chat about it. Martin 19:03, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

I would prefer:

D) Evading a ban would cause the ban to be automatically extended by two weeks (or another period of time). However, the total length of the ban after this extension cannot exceed that of the original ban.

—Guanaco 07:16, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Resetting the clock sounds appropriate to me - rather than tripled times, additional set period, etc. Call for other ideas and do a straw poll? - David Gerard 13:32, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I believe that any attempt to come up with a mechanical solution is counterproductive. We should seek to enforce bans through both social and technical measures. If this is done effectively, there should be little opportunity for evasion. Any evasion that is serious enough to pose a problem is probably best dealt with on a case by case basis. UninvitedCompany 14:47, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

You have a point there. Though I think that once we have more experience, some bureaucracy on the point would be appropriate, so the regulations are clear. In the meantime, perhaps including penalty for ban evasion in the penalty? If the AC think that's a suitable idea - David Gerard 15:43, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Evading a ban doesn't win you any brownie points in the popular consciousness. In a sense, that's the additional punishment, I guess. Martin 18:00, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Human proxies?

I would welcome your thoughts on this offer: [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Talk:Iridology&diff=3628508&oldid=3628347) User:Irismeister is banned from editing Iridology; User:Mr-Natural-Health offers to act as a proxy for his edits. Is this different from using an anonymous web proxy? What about the offer without action? - David Gerard 23:50, May 27, 2004 (UTC)

I think it is different from an anon web proxy, as there's some intelligence involved, and the possibility of filtering, as well as a delay. For users who are completely banned, it would be different, but where the intention of a ban from one page is to require users to propose changes on Talk, this kind of offer doesn't appear problematic to me.

I added a little about proxying for banned users to the page. Martin 23:38, 29 May 2004 (UTC)

That sounds right :-) - David Gerard 09:50, 30 May 2004 (UTC)

Baiting block proposed

In view of the recent incidents, please consider the merits of a process to temporarily block for 24 hours of anyone who is apparently baiting a temporarily banned contributor. Perhaps any three admins in agreement to start it and then a simple majority to undo it if there are objections. All parties to the dispute prohibitid from participating in votes or enacting this temporary block. I propose you including this in all of your rulings which involve a ban. Jamesday 00:01, 29 May 2004 (UTC)

Thats probably a good idea. Being banned is stressful and unpleasent enough without people intentionally harassing an individual. I propose however that obvious baiting be considered unnaceptable in general, even outside of situations involving a ban. How about this use of a username space? 'User:Lord Kenneth' or other, similar examples? Sam [Spade (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Sam_Spade&action=edit&section=new)] 00:28, 29 May 2004 (UTC)

Um I don't think I agree with you Sam (I'm sort of thinking out loud here). Baiting someone who is banned is a clear, and simple violation of good manners. You say something nasty on their talk page, they are unable to defend themselves, or to even wipe your comments. We can all see, at a glance that that is wrong. LK is an entirely different matter. It's his own user space, he should pretty much be able to say whatever he likes on it. I don't like people being rude, and would rather people didn't list their their wikienimies on their userpages but should we censure people who do it? I don't know. My gut feeling is that we probably should not. theresa knott 19:42, 29 May 2004 (UTC)

The basis of my point is that it is not "their" user space, but rather is community property, as are all other parts of the wiki, designed for making a better encyclopedia. Do you think he (a departed user AFAIK) is using his user page space for the good of the project? A similar circumstance involved lists on wik's user page (now removed). Sam [Spade (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Sam_Spade&action=edit&section=new)] 22:19, 29 May 2004 (UTC)

I think we should start off by saying that baiting banned users is inappropriate, before worrying about enforcement. So I've edited the page, given that I can't see any objections. Martin 23:29, 29 May 2004 (UTC)

That's sensible Matin. I have some other thoughts on the subject that we need to think about

1. Banned users are very rare, baiting of said banned users is even rarer. In fact I am only aware of one such case - the baiting of Wik by a number of users during his 7 day ban. We should not bother thinking up punishments to deal with such rare problems but should simply allow admins to use their good judgement. The protecting of Wik's user pages and talk pages and the deleting of any other pages created in order to try and provoke Wik seems to have worked.

1. For users who have left, their users pages are unlikely to ever be viewed by anyone. Who's going to look at the user page of someone who no longer edits?

1. Sometimes people want to leave a parting shot explaining why they have left. These are frequently (Er- how shall i put this?) passionate. I think they should be allowed to do this.

You are all a bunch of twats, especially users A B and C. They've hounded me out of here, and the admins did nothing to stop them. All admins are wankers. GOODBYE LOOZERS!"

I think that A B and C should feel pretty pleased. Someone who hates them has left. That should be the end of it as far as I am concerned. Anyway we can hardly punish a user who has left now can we? We can always refactor out the personal attacks, but we would have to do the very carefully so as to keep the argument the same.

I'm leaving but I love you all would be wrong.

I'm leaving because I've has some problems with certain users and the rest of the community (especially the admins) did nothing to help sort out these problemswould be better but personally I'd go for

You are all a bunch of twats, I've had problems with A B and C and the admins did nothing to help. All admins are wankers. GOODBYE LOOZERS! The personal attack against A B and C has gone but the general attack stays. People must be allowed to critisize Wikipedia, the community, and the policies. If we try to stifle this we really will be forming a cabal.

1. For active contributors, I think we should try to influence them, rather than punish them.

1. In reply to Sam's argument. It actually does help in a funny sort of way. When I read a person's user page I do it to get to know something about them. This person is funny, I can have a laugh with them. This person is sensitive I need to temper my usual brashness. This person has a huge list of personal attacks, I can safely think of them as a problem user.

User:Theresa knott

This all seems sensible to me, Theresa Martin

Returning banned users

I am a little disturbed by the amount of energy going into trying to link current users to previously banned users. I would like to see the old tradtition of discouraging witchhunts in these cases - treat a user on the merits of their current contributions, allow banned users to turn over a new leaf and contribute productively. Mark Richards 15:40, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The case you're referring to is obvious. I don't believe the term "witchhunt" is appropriate and I have changed the title accordingly. You weren't here to see the destruction the last three times around, and the amount of time and energy spent by the community in dealing with it. Without the benefit of such knowledge, the present focus may well seem confusing. Essentially all banned users asked by Jimbo to leave were given the option to return provided they talked to Jimbo first, which has not been done in this case. It is not as though there is no mechanism for forgiveness.

The fact that relatively few present-day Wikipedians were present for these community decisions does not change the fact that they were indeed community decisions that deserve the same respect of us now as we would expect of those users to come of decisions that we make today. With the amount of turnover we have, with contribution periods averaging about six months, we can ill afford to ignore the work of those who have been here before.

UninvitedCompany 19:26, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

If there is a 'large amount of destruction' this time, then ban them. Otherwise let them contribute. Let sleeping dogs lie, and don't bait users who may well have learned a lesson. I don't think that you mean to imply that decisions that were made in the past could not be revisited if they do not serve the needs of the project any longer. Mark Richards 20:09, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Any chance of being let in on what particular case is the issue here? In the general case, I'd tend to agree with Mark, but without knowing exactly what the problem is here, it's hard to say anything very meaningful. --Camembert

UC is implying that I am writing this specifically relating to the case of JRR Trollkein. While he is right that I am interested in that case, it is not because of the particulars, but because of the precident and the principle. I believe that we need to focus strictly on problematic edits, and make decisions on the basis of those, rather than spending a lot of time and energy speculating on motive, or possible relationships to previously banned users. Mark Richards 15:57, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

To take one example, user:Michael - if I see someone who is clearly Michael editing music articles, I'm going to block him and revert his changes. I don't think it necessarily requires to routinely check his edits, check all the dates with the record company, verify that there are indeed errors, and then block and revert him.

Basically, we ban people because their problematic behaviour is too difficult to deal with on the basis of the edits alone, so we are forced to look at the human behind the edits. Focusing myopically on the problematic edits requires an excess of time and concentration, compared to recognising who they come from, dealing with them appropriately, and moving on.

If we believe that banned users may have turned over a new leaf, we should unban them! Leaving them formally banned, but allowing them to edit freely, is just hypocritical, and sends mixed messages to those we would prefer to leave. If we're to have parole, where we allow previously banned users to edit if they stick closely to the rules, we should make that official, shouldn't we? - Martin 00:42, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

are people unbanned w any kind of regularity? I know it happened w Lir... Is mailing Jimbo (and I assume his consent...) still the solitary method for such a redemption? Sam [Spade (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Sam_Spade&action=edit&section=new)] 00:47, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Well, they are now, because the arbcom has been issuing temp bans, where Jimbo was an all-or-nothing person. Mailing Jimbo is one way to be formally unbanned, requesting arbitration would be another. Where the ban is primarily because of a conflict with a few people, requesting mediation is probably an option. Martin 00:51, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I'm sorry that people feel that it would take too much time and attention for them to consider each case on its merits. I disagree, and value the openness of a wiki too much to turn it into a closed community where people are banned without consideration of their contributions. Banning must be a last resort if we value what a wiki is. Mark Richards 19:40, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

We do consider each person on their merits. Neither the arbitration committee, nor Jimbo Wales, bans people without considering their contributions, and the banning process is a slow one. It takes a lot of effort to get your editing priviledges on Wikipedia revoked, though some people do manage it. Banning is already a last resort, and I'm glad that you approve of us using bans as a last resort.

Once someone is banned, blocks of various kinds are one way we enforce that ban. Again, we don't rush to judgement, but where it is obvious that an account is a sock puppet of a banned user, that account is blocked from editing Wikipedia.

I think you need to be clear on what you want, and currently you're not. Do you want us to use bans of users less often, or for shorter time periods? Or, do you want us to change the way we use account blocks against banned users? Which is it to be? Martin 22:10, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I want admins to follow community made policy, and not endanger the notion of a wiki by denying access without exploring all other options first. In at least some cases, there have been no other steps taken before users are banned (Leo Trollsoty for example). I do not believe that banning is an effective way of reducing conflict on wikis, nor do I want to see WP turn into an increasingly closed community. I think probably that the only reason that I would advocate for banning someone is refusing to discuss things collaboratively persistantly, over an extended period of time. Mark Richards 00:45, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Well, I agree that admins should follow community made policy. However, you've not answered my question, really. Consider the current community made policy, as expressed at wikipedia:banning policy, wikipedia:blocking policy, on how we use account blocks against banned users. Do you believe it is sensible? Or, do you believe it needs to change?

I can certainly sympathise with your viewpoint on bans in general, and I'm sure we could have an interesting discussion over which of the currently banned users we each feel should be unbanned. However, my feeling is that once we've decided to ban someone, and due process has been followed, we should allow those bans to be enforced, whatever our personal opinions on the matter. That doesn't mean that I necessarilly have to join in the efforts to enforce a ban - just that I shouldn't get in the way of others who do so. Would you agree with me on this? Martin 01:55, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Well, the reason I don't seem to have answered your question is because it is loaded with all kinds of things... 'we' have decided to ban someone? Who has? Someone has interpreted a policy, and decided a user should be banned, someone else has interpreted it and decided that they should not be. How do we decide who is right? I don't believe the policy has been followed in the case of LT, which is on RFROAA, if you care to comment on that. Yours, Mark Richards 02:18, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Gee whiz, let me think. Maybe we read the policy. Leo Trollstoy aside, why do you keep unblocking JRR Trollkien in light of obvious consensus? - Hephaestos|§ 02:52, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Gee whiz, let me think. Maybe you should read the policy. JRRT aside, why do you keep blocking LT and ToN against clear policy? Mark Richards 18:11, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I'm trying not to load my question, so my apologies if it seems that way. To respond to one sentence, you say:

Someone has interpreted a policy, and decided a user should be banned

No. Someone has interpreted a policy, and decided that an account (actually, several accounts) should be blocked. Key difference.

That the person known variously as 142.177.etc and EofT and other things is banned is, I hope, not in dispute here. It was a Jimbo ruling (two, in fact), back when Jimbo took charge of such things personally.

You go on to say that, if I understand you correctly, you have interpreted current policy, and decided that JRR Trollkien should not be blocked. Ok, that's interesting. Perhaps you could share with us your reasoning on the matter? What lead you to that decision? Martin 00:55, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I'm not sure that I understand you Martin, you say you are correcting my use of the word 'user', pointing out that it is an account that should be blocked, then go on to mention that the person EofT etc has been banned. I'm not sure where that gets us. However, as I mentioned, the resons mentioned for blocking the JRRT account are variously, username, allegedly being a banned user, opinions (apparently promoting a fork), edits. I'm not sure which is the reason for the block, so it's difficult to say. My basic concern is that I am not sure that there is evidence or justification for any of these reasons. If the account is indeed that of a banned user, I would not oppose a block. I know that you are convinced, I remain unconvinced. I would accept a ruling by the AC, or a clarification by the community as a whole about how disputes are to be resolved. Mark Richards 01:29, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Discussion continues at wikipedia talk:policies and guidelines

Clean slate

I'd like to see new users (as in newly created accounts) being given a relatively clean slate. If they behave badly, and there is solid evidence (I.P. + circumstantial) that they are a banned user, then block the account. If they arn't behaving badly, I really don't agree w messing about w who they might be. Newly created accounts prob should not be allowed to vote for a time, some sort of "probation", and maybe there might be other restrictions, but I myself was accused of being a returned banned user. It was not pleasent, and while I was exonerated (via I.P.) I was never appologised to by my accuser, and the unfriendliness of it all certainly gave me reason to consider leaving the wikipedia permanantly. The less false accusations, and the more good edits the better, IMO. Sam [Spade (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Sam_Spade&action=edit&section=new)] 02:45, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Hmm - the accusations and the unfriendliness are a matter of culture, not policy, I guess. Wouldn't having a tried and trusted way of dealing with reincarnations make people more tolerant of newcomers rather than less? After all, you weren't ever blocked, right? Martin 18:17, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Nope, the accusations against me were extremely thin (did not involve me violating policy, for example) but were hurtful nonetheless. Anyhow my main point is that new editors should be given the benefit of the doubt until they start violating policy. Sam [Spade (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Sam_Spade&action=edit&section=new)] 05:31, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The accusations and conflict seeking behavior are a major cause of the problem. The assumption that there is a technical fix involving banning is just wrong, unless you are willing to give up the concept of open editing. Much of the vandalism / trolling seems to be caused by frustration and anger at sysops behavior. Mark Richards 20:15, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

case law

Dear RedDice,

I note you deleted my addittion to this page:

The arbitration committee takes a grave view of users offering to assist banned users make edits. In June 2004, it extended a users ban for further week for this misdemeanour [2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Mr-Natural-Health#Final_decision).

You explained this as being "because we don't make policy - just interpret it".

I believe my section should stay, edited if necessary, because, as I far as I know, this is a precedent that is not covered by policy. While it is true the AC's primary role is not to create policy, it inevitably will. The law (or policy) will never cover all senarios and the gaps are filled in by precedent. It helps make the system more just if these precedents are documented. If, of course, this decision is somehow reversed (Jimbo, appeal, popular revolt?) then that changes everything. But in the meantime, this is the closest we have to a policy on this topic.

Just to remove any doubt, my post was not intended in anyway to criticise the AC. I was mere aiming to capture an historic fact. If noone else agree's with me then I'll drop it! best wishes Erich 03:34, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Since we now have precedent, maybe it could become policy, without implying that the arbcom actually made the policy. Perhaps "it is against Wikipedia policy for users to offer to assist banned users in making edits" could be added instead? Angela. 17:19, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Erich - the arbcom policy explains that we don't want to bind our hands with precedents from early incompetence - we might contradict ourselves in later (more wiser?) rulings. So I wanted to set a precedent that we don't set precedents! :)

Certainly I have no objection to the clarification of policy Angela proposes. h2g2 had something similar - though they forbade actually making edits on behalf of banned users, rather than merely offering. It did seem to work there, though I objected strongly at the time. Martin 11:08, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

ah I see the logic. well that is fair enough too and its an important point. Perhaps blaming caution on fear of incompetence may be a bit excessively self-deprecating... how about putting it down to a desire to 'remain flexible in order to allow future decisions to be shaped by the experience of community reaction and to mitigate the unforseen circumstances of earlier decisions' (earlier gibberish cut by author) Erich 11:27, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I believe you can find something similar at wikipedia:arbitration policy already. :) Martin 12:50, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

oh yes... oops. Well I'd still maintain that precedents are worth collecting... if I was a betting man I'd be predicting that the AC is more likely to act in accord with previous decision than not. (I assume you are planning to act randomly!) Collecting the past decisions is not hard... and for new wikipedians trying to figure out how order is maintained and what the rules are they may be the best indication we've got. The way precedents work is that once they are established most often they never go back to 'court' because people just accept them. (unless there is appeal or controversy of course). Although, the danger of not making the precedents explicit is they may pass by without the community ever really noticing them. So I still think we should make them epxlicit, call them what they are (previous decisions) and at the same time ephasise the disclaimer about not being binding. if noone else agrees I'll stop bleating about it. Erich 02:03, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Human Proxying part 2

The guidelines state:

Because we discourage people from using Wikipedia to interact with banned users, it is likewise inappropriate to post material on behalf of banned users. Such activity is sometimes called "proxying". As people respond to such material, this will inevitably draw in the banned user, and again may tempt them to subvert their ban. Our aim is to make it as easy as possible for banned users to leave Wikipedia with their dignity intact, whether permanently, or for the duration of their ban. Offering to proxy is likewise inappropriate.

Do those apply to encyclopedic information? As in, if a user creates a great new article, am I forbidden from posting it to wikipedia (assuming it is NPOV, GFDL ...)? Jrincayc 21:04, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It would depend if you were posting it to Wikipedia because the banned user had asked you ("on behalf of") or whether you'd come across it in the normal course of research, and wished to copy the material to Wikipedia. In the latter case, you might want to copy it, though personally I'd still advise caution.

Perhaps we should indicate that the proxying rule is especially true for comments and debate, and a little more flexible in the case of encyclopedic content published elsewhere? Martin 22:10, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

How about changing "inappropriate to post material" to "inappropriate to post comments and debate"? Since the top of the page states: "You can still contribute indirectly by publishing GFDL or public domain articles and images elsewhere on the web that Wikipedians can use as resources." to say it is inapproprate to post material would be contradictory. I have in the past offered to proxy encyclopedic material for two reasons: 1) if they give me useful material, then Wikipedia is improved. 2) it lessons the incentive to try and bypass the other methods of banning. I agree that comments and debate would tend to get out of hand, but I don't see any way that proxying encyclopedic information would be harmful. I think that this would be better to wait and see if there is a problem before banning it altogether. Jrincayc 01:57, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Getting unbanned

How does one go about getting oneself unbanned? Since there are some permanent bans, presumably in say six months the person may have grown up, decided to become a useful contributer, etc. This page does not list any method for becoming unbanned. Jrincayc 21:07, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Via the appeals process? I've made a change as a suggestion, revert if it's a problem. Martin 22:13, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Standing orders

(from Wikipedia talk:Requests for Arbitration/Standing orders/Anthony)

I propose modifying this proposal in two ways.

The first is a clarification of existing policy - that arbcom can authorise paroles, in which any sysop may apply 24hr temp-bans, at their judgement, in particular circumstances. We did this for Wik, for example. I'll make this change now, since it's just making something specific.

The second change is to note that such paroles may be entered into voluntarilly, with Wikipedia:Requests for Arbitration/Standing orders/Anthony being the first example. This is a change, but I can't imagine it's controversial. From that page, I have the following people who I believe are in favour of it:

Angela, Bcorr, Cimon Avaro (mediators)

Raul654, Anthony DiPierro (folks in mediation)

James F, the Epopt, Martin, Fred (arbitrators)

If there are no objections I think it's worth making that second change. When and where should we advertise to let people comment and/or object? Martin 22:55, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)